Brexit Thread IX - Voters' Remorse

Do note that they say "our commitment and proactivity to preventing criminality" when criminality means climate protest. This is not the way a free society is supposed to deal with peaceful protest. Also I think it is broken grammar, but I am hardly one to criticise that.

Oh but it has always been to some degree. You know you're hittiong them in the right spot when they set the police on you. Make s strategy out of it. Lots of cheap provocations, until the police themselves are sick and cynical of it all. Ridicule kills governments...
 
Oh but it has always been to some degree. You know you're hittiong them in the right spot when they set the police on you. Make s strategy out of it. Lots of cheap provocations, until the police themselves are sick and cynical of it all. Ridicule kills governments...
I'll have to remember to quote you on this whenever you next defend the regimes in Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, China, Russia…
 
From that report:

The data shows at the turn of the millennium, the country was nearly on par with the rest of the bloc, as each reported trade worth between 50 and 60 percent of GDP.
A vast chasm opened after 2011 when the EU started growing at a much more exponential rate, and this became even more pronounced between 2019 and 2021.

2011 is five years before the 2016 UK Referendum on continued EU membership.
So the issue was not caused by the vote, but maybe it contributed to the vote.
 
It reads a bit like having a go at Liz Truss.
Maybe she was talking less than favourably about the leader and needed taking down a peg.
No mention of Frost or Johnson.
 
The concept of having Liz Truss have the UK mimic EU deals with other parties so that everything remains the same
is at best a short term interim approach, but doing it for longer is in my opinion pseudo Remainer thinking anyway.

I refer you to wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liz_Truss

Initially, Truss supported the United Kingdom remaining in the European Union during the 2016 referendum.
 
The concept of having Liz Truss have the UK mimic EU deals with other parties so that everything remains the same
is at best a short term interim approach, but doing it for longer is in my opinion pseudo Remainer thinking anyway.

I refer you to wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liz_Truss

That's not exactly unusual - your entire conservative party supported EU membership/expansion for decades :

How Boris Johnson has changed his views on Europe – Channel 4 News

[...] In the same debate he looked forward to the expansion of the EU, adding: “I do not know whether any honourable Members are foolish enough to oppose eventual Turkish membership of the European Union.”

Compare that to the Vote Leave campaign that Mr Johnson helped run in 2016, which was criticised for running advertisements warning about mass immigration if Turkey was allowed to join the bloc.

It's hard to believe these people have honestly changed their minds on the issue, and are not just saying what they think voters want to hear to get elected.
 
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It's hard to believe these people have honestly changed their minds on the issue, and are not just saying what they think voters want to hear to get elected.

Well yes, but actually no. You are right that these politicians are very opportunistic, but I don't think their underlying reasoning changed. It's just that the EU changed and that flipped their stance on Turkey. When the European Union is primarily a common trading are whose regulations don't touch secondary aspects from trade (i.e. ecological and social regulations, common foreign policy, migratory aspects) then it's better to have Turkey and other less democratic actors in. It pushes the trend away from further centralisation. When however that battle over the direction of the EU was lost, or rather stalemated with very very slow movement towards more centralisation, then it makes sense to fear them being inside the block. I'd wager that now that the UK is out, they are in favour of Turkey joining the EU again as they think it weakens the Union (which it would given the sorry state of Turkey nowadays).

But yeah, they are not honest communicators :)
 
That's not exactly unusual - your entire conservative party supported EU membership/expansion for decades

There was a consistent majority for decades, but there were always a few sceptics who were regarded as mavericks.


It's hard to believe these people have honestly changed their minds on the issue, and are not just saying what they think voters want to hear to get elected.

Well quite, that is my opinion.


Well yes, but actually no. You are right that these politicians are very opportunistic, but I don't think their underlying reasoning changed. It's just that the EU changed and that flipped their stance on Turkey. When the European Union is primarily a common trading are whose regulations don't touch secondary aspects from trade (i.e. ecological and social regulations, common foreign policy, migratory aspects) then it's better to have Turkey and other less democratic actors in. It pushes the trend away from further centralisation. When however that battle over the direction of the EU was lost, or rather stalemated with very very slow movement towards more centralisation, then it makes sense to fear them being inside the block. I'd wager that now that the UK is out, they are in favour of Turkey joining the EU again as they think it weakens the Union (which it would given the sorry state of Turkey nowadays).

While the trend towards centralisation slowed, it had definitely not stopped, and there was always a possibility that it would restart in strength.
For instance the measures to restart the EU economy after the impact of Covid may set a precedent for a much larger role for EU institutions.

Turkey was a red herring as far as the majority of the UK public were concerned. Every EU member state had a veto regarding new members
joining the political union and the treaty structure is such that it was not easy to remove and replace it by qualified majority voting without a treaty change .
Boris's statement that Turkey might join the EU was widely recognised as campaigning over statement. But there was concern that Turkey might
be offered a concession on visas in exchange for holding middle eastern refugees and other migrants that might result in Turkish immigration to the UK.

As for the position of the UK government while in the EU; its stance did not necessarily represent what the UK public wanted.
There was a double question in many people's minds. Would (i) the EU try to impose changes the UK public did not want and
(ii) could we rely upon the UK government opposing it? Many of us concluded that the answers were (i) Yes, and (ii) No.

The following BBC article identifies some of the nonsense regarding Turkey:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46926119
 
Ever closer union is literally in the first sentence of the treaty of Rome from 1957.
I don't get why people are still surprised when further integration happens.
DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever-closer union among the peoples of
Europe,
RESOLVED to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common
action to eliminate the barriers which divide Europe,
AFFIRMING as the essential objective of their efforts the constant improvement of the
living and working conditions of their peoples,
RECOGNISING that the removal of existing obstacles calls for concerted action in
order to guarantee steady expansion, balanced trade and fair competition,
ANXIOUS to strengthen the unity of their economies and to ensure their harmonious
development by reducing the differences existing between the various regions and the
backwardness of the less favoured regions,
DESIRING to contribute, by means of a common commercial policy, to the progressive
abolition of restrictions on international trade,
INTENDING to confirm the solidarity which binds Europe and the overseas countries
and desiring to ensure the development of their prosperity, in accordance with the
principles of the Charter of the United Nations,
RESOLVED by thus pooling their resources to preserve and strengthen peace and
liberty, and calling upon the other peoples of Europe who share their ideal to join in
their efforts,
HAVE DECIDED to create a European Economic Community
 
Ever closer union is literally in the first sentence of the treaty of Rome from 1957.
I don't get why people are still surprised when further integration happens.

The answer is very simple.

Ordinary people are not lawyers and not accountants, so they simply don't read treaties.

And the UK establishment line was that joining the EEC (common market) was merely a
larger trade deal; and as the UK had not previously consulted the public about previous
trade deals, there was likewise simply no need for a referendum on this one.

We were also told that the referendums in the other three applicants (Denmark, Eire and
Norway) were because they had written constitutions that required a referendum, and that
because the UK constitution was not likewise formally codified, no UK referendum was needed.

The absence of a referendum meant that many key issues such as what the EEC was really
about and what the business case for joining was, were not debated in front of the UK public.

When that text you quote was referred to by sceptics, it was dismissed (in 1972) by the
UK government as meaningless political trapping wish fulfilment aspiration put in to please a
few utopian European visionaries that would not actually lead anywhere and later (i.e. in 1975)
that if it looked like leading anywhere the UK public would be further consulted.

And people tended to trust the government more in those days.

And there was no Internet in the 1970s to point out such lies.
 
Ever closer union is literally in the first sentence of the treaty of Rome from 1957.
I don't get why people are still surprised when further integration happens.

It goes so far at roughly the same pace as nuclear fusion for power plants.

In another 25 years both endeavours will be a century old just like Sputnik.

I think the strong technocratic wave post WW2 had no clue how the future would develop with their ideas on a nearby strong federal like union.
But it does not matter either.
The changing world outside the EU and all the common interests of EU countries will increase the bonding within the EU.
 
The answer is very simple.

Ordinary people are not lawyers and not accountants, so they simply don't read treaties.
They rely on not being too badly lied to by both their national politicians and their national media. Mileage clearly varies between nations on that score.
 
Well, of course we can't trust the UK govt further than we can throw them. If Johnson/Frost remain for much longer, Article 16 will almost certainly be triggered, especially if the EU seem too reasonable about a deal.
 
Ordinary people are not lawyers and not accountants, so they simply don't read treaties.
So why do we do something as rash as inflicting referenda on them when they don't know what they're being questioned on?

Because, if the sovereign (people, monarch, take your pick) delegate covernment onto specialists (after all, we cannot all be police officers or health ministers), then that sovereign cannot, after having kept out of it for several decades, just be asked something which they simply not prepared to answer.
 
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