Brexit Thread VI - The Knockout Phase ?!?

[Hrothbern]

I've always considered the EU to be more of a trade agreement than a peace treaty. It's not like it has done anything to supersede or supplant NATO, has it?

We had a lot more Civil Wars (intra-EU wars) than you there across the Atlantic pond.

 

[uppi]

I've always considered the EU to be more of a trade agreement than a peace treaty. It's not like it has done anything to supersede or supplant NATO, has it?

I don't mean the EU in general, but the Northern Ireland issue. There you have an actual peace treaty with terms that cannot be upheld in case of a no-deal Brexit.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

We had a lot more Civil Wars (intra-EU wars) than you there across the Atlantic pond.

Well, yeah. But again, isn't it basically NATO that put a stop to that rather than the EU agreement?

@uppi ...ahh, okay. Yeah, I can see how that would apply.

 

[Hrothbern]

Well, yeah. But again, isn't it basically NATO that put a stop to that rather than the EU agreement?

No no
The introduction of the Euro for example was forced by Mitterand (France) in 1989 upon Germany as exchange for accepting that East-Germany joined West-Germany. That argument and execution also made Thatcher and Gorbatsjov accept it.
All fear for a too strong Germany.

 

[Arakhor]

The Article 50 petition is now a mere 300,000 votes away from being the most-signed petition in the site's history, which means it's gained half a million signatures in the last five hours.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

No no
The introduction of the Euro for example was forced by Mitterand (France) in 1989 upon Germany as exchange for accepting that East-Germany joined West-Germany. That argument and execution also made Thatcher and Gorbatsjov accept it.
All fear for a too strong Germany.

I dunno whether that says more about Germany or France having egg on their face, since the Euro has turned out to be the best thing to happen to Germany since...ever.

 

[Cheetah]

I've always considered the EU to be more of a trade agreement than a peace treaty. It's not like it has done anything to supersede or supplant NATO, has it?

NATO is great for keeping any major wars at bay, by all means. It's a good thing.

But it never stopped the «Troubles» from killing 3000+ people. Nor did they stop the Basques from putting bombs around Spain.

Would it react to a conflict between Italy and Austria over Bolzano/Süd-Tirol?

Not to mention Alsace-Lorraine...

While it is deeply hidden, the EU's existence has helped calm several controversial territorial issues in Europe, and it's not unreasonable to consider it a guarantor of peace.

 

[innonimatu]

Numerous companies that provide food have said that they expect the disruption in their supplies to render them unable to perform that trivial function for an extended period. They were dismissed as "alarmists."

Postponing the exit day by two weeks is actually worse that just leaving on the set date, because companies were planning for the 29th. Not their plans are in disarray, the work stops to smooth over possible disruption will be over before the actual disruptions happen. This is an utterly idiotic move for the UK.

One more along the line of not preparing for a no deal exit since day one.

Now the fools are talking about yet another impossible idea, a customs union. That is both more that the backstop that was already rejected, and too little regarding the EU's bone of contention, the irish border. It won't pass with the tories even if it would with Labour. The SNP is unreliable because by now they're gaming for brexit so as to get a new referendum of their own. And it would't pass with the EU either!
Why are the british being so damn incompetent?

This small extension for a vote was actually necessary by now for May to have the ability to do another vote and change the legislation regarding brexit. They better have already started that change regarding the date (the 29th) that was set into UK law and can't just be revised in one day.
But she just doesn't have the majority to pass her deal, especially as the idea that different deals can be made continue to float around. So this just burns more time, prolongs the political drama and divisions in the UK, and throws into chaos whatever preparations had been made. Utterly idiotic, she should have just refused the postponement even if it meant she got a share of the blaming for not reaching a deal.

 

[AmazonQueen]

But we have the paper work ready!

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...for-no-deal-brexit/ar-BBV6SKM?ocid=spartandhp

The Department of Health has also issued every clinic and hospital in England and Wales with a form that poses 60 questions. This has to be filled out on a daily basis and sent to senior officials.

The questions include:

“Please confirm that you can maintain business critical services until the next daily ‘sitrep’ submission is due?”

“Are you assured you can maintain urgent cancer treatments until the next daily ‘sitrep’ submission is due?” and

“Is your organisation planning to suspend any patient services until the next daily ‘sitrep’ submission is due?”

That will really, really help.

 

[Arakhor]

So, the NHS, already suffering manpower and motivation issues, is now going to be saddled with every clinic in the country having to fill out out a long firm every single day??

 

[Takhisis]

I've always considered the EU to be more of a trade agreement than a peace treaty. It's not like it has done anything to supersede or supplant NATO, has it?

Ireland's already been discussed, but there's also the more indirect bit about the EU supporting its member countries against territorial claims from non-members or at least not overtly supporting them.

The Falklands case will be a bit of a pickle, but Gibraltar, which voted by a ridiculously large majority to remain in the EU and is (re)claimed by Spain, will be even worse. A century ago the UK decided to hold a referendum in Ireland and only granted independence to those counties which had individual majorities in favour of independence, a precedent which the UK will definitely not follow for Northern Ireland or Scotland or Gibraltar this time around.

So, the NHS, already suffering manpower and motivation issues, is now going to be saddled with every clinic in the country having to fill out out a long firm every single day??

I've been rewatching Morse and the UK feels to be fast returning to the 1980s, from blaming the EU to Liverpool getting into European finals every other year to having imbeciles in charge to increasing red tape in the name of efficicency to having Judas Priest churn out good albums… it just does go on.

 

[innonimatu]

That solution for Ireland was the only one that could avoid (continuing) civil war. Even now NI joining the RoI would be kind of a poisoned present, I guess.

 

[FriendlyFire]

That solution for Ireland was the only one that could avoid (continuing) civil war. Even now NI joining the RoI would be kind of a poisoned present, I guess.

We could always divide the country into two and then have the EU and UK sign a non-aggression pact ?

 

[really]

The Falklands case will be a bit of a pickle, but Gibraltar, which voted by a ridiculously large majority to remain in the EU and is (re)claimed by Spain, will be even worse. A century ago the UK decided to hold a referendum in Ireland and only granted independence to those counties which had individual majorities in favour of independence, a precedent which the UK will definitely not follow for Northern Ireland or Scotland or Gibraltar this time around.

There was no referendum on this - our independence is as a result of a guerrilla war.

The British response was to send in the army and paramilitaries like the black and tans.
(Related: Steve Coogan playing an Alan Partridge lookalike on This Time last Monday night singing about them on BBC 1 just before the news:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1107765353889910784
)

Separately: https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...t-supporters-in-london-1-4894412?sdfsdfsdfsdf
Brexit supporters shouted abuse at the leader of the SNP in Westminster - calling them 'traitors to England'

 

[EnglishEdward]

With leaving the customs union the UK is effectively in breach of an international treaty.

There is nothing in the Good Friday Agreement about that.

I do suggest that that those people who wish to refer to it, actually read it.

http://wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/today/good_friday/full_text.html

But the UK would be in breach if the UK Parliament ratified Martin Barnier's prevention of
withdrawal imposition and then left the EU customs union without the EU's permission.

And it is to avoid such a breach that the UK Parliament voted twice not to ratify it.

 

[Kyriakos]

There was no referendum on this - our independence is as a result of a guerrilla war.

The British response was to send in the army and paramilitaries like the black and tans.
(Related: Steve Coogan playing an Alan Partridge lookalike on This Time last Monday night singing about them on BBC 1 just before the news:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1107765353889910784
)

Separately: https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...t-supporters-in-london-1-4894412?sdfsdfsdfsdf
Brexit supporters shouted abuse at the leader of the SNP in Westminster - calling them 'traitors to England'

While it will be fair if ireland reunites the island, will ireland be able to deal with millions of english protestants?

 

[Hrothbern]

Well, yeah. But again, isn't it basically NATO that put a stop to that rather than the EU agreement?

You could look at the EU as the Balkan in phase II

You USians have many borders between states that are as straight as the longitude and latitude, and even states that are completely rectangular in that way.
And lots of ocean as natural border.

We have borders that are of the most weird nature because of old treaties of wars and often natural borders from rivers, mountain ridges and economical poior and war hindering peat moor or bog areas.
From an island in a border river that switches nation-state every 6 months (Spain-France, the treaty made on that island), to exclaves of the most tiny nature belonging to a tiny country in Europe, with BTW the oldest borders of Europe (Andorra). And yes, that exclave because of the wording of a treaty, a "ville" instead of a "village".
Or a small exclave in Syria of Turkey, just because the the tomb of the grandfather of the founder of the Ottoman empire is there.
And many more of such.

Our old wars and old treaties, going back to Medieval, are as dear to us as our variety in local kinds of food
(protected by the EU like Parmesan, but also pushing out now traditional East-European food varieties on price from Big Retail brands that are imported, causing political issues).

De Gaulle once said (was that against Churchill ? who wanted directly after WW2 a Federal Europe): how to unite Europe when France is not even united having 240 (?) different kind of cheeses ?

The highest war density in Europe in late medieval and early modern period was probably the South Netherlands and Belgium.
Here a crazy, if not the most crazy, border situation between Belgium and the Netherlands, in the town Baarle-Nassau (NL) or Baarle-Hertog (BE):
The Belgium part of the town is composed out of main Belgium + 22 enclaves in the Netherlands, the Dutch part of the town is composed out of the main Netherlands + 8 enclaves in Belgium of which 7 are sub-enclaves in Belgian enclaves in the Netherlands.

And here some vids on weird borders all over the world, mostly from economy & war, many from the colonial period.

Spoiler :

And more anekdotical:
I was a couple of years back for my work in Zurich and with a football match of the Dutch team for the European Championship that evening I went with my local colleague to a pub to watch it there. Switzerland was already out, and most Swiss in favor of the Dutch, because... Germany was still in the race. And discussing that craziness "how about your old wars with Austria"... that village there near Zurich then and then a battle, and that village there near Zurich another battle. Lots of folklore is still alive and moved to sports.
All small countries around Germany rally together, when it is football, against the German team. Has nothing to do with WW2. Is small against big.
Another time I was in Liechtenstein and the German team had lost of Brazil. And everybody with a Brazilian flag (surprisingly many) was driving in a car with that flag and loud car horns. Liechtenstein, bordering Germany, has 40,000 inhabitants.

 

[Kyriakos]

Another strange border is Constantinople not being in Greece. You can (ultimately) thank France for that too. It insisted eastern thrace was given back to Turkey in 1922.
Sadly at the time France wasn't the joke it became in ww2, so Britain had to comply.

 

[Hrothbern]

Another strange border is Constantinople not being in Greece. You can (ultimately) thank France for that too. It insisted eastern thrace was given back to Turkey in 1922.
Sadly at the time France wasn't the joke it became in ww2, so Britain had to comply.

Yes...
we remember those things !

 

[uppi]

Separately: https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...t-supporters-in-london-1-4894412?sdfsdfsdfsdf
Brexit supporters shouted abuse at the leader of the SNP in Westminster - calling them 'traitors to England'

If you put all the stupidity of Brexiters into one sentence, that would probably be it.