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Brexit Thread VI - The Knockout Phase ?!?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Hrothbern, Mar 22, 2019.

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  1. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    That's possible. The question will then need to be why ?
    We have for now a period of an imploding Tory party as visible manifestation that Brexit is not as easy as it was sold.

    I guess revoking Art 50 as emergency brake to prevent an accidental no-deal cliff edge cannot be excluded, but not as outcome of an orderly parliamentary process.
    The Tories are in government, have the PM... Labour the outlook on winning the next national elections... the Remainers going for that confirmatory referendum in an as much as possible orderly way.
    Can the Tories prevent new elections this year ?

    The Remainers are thinking about the new campaign strategy for that new referendum. They do not want to put too much focus on the disadvantages of Leaving, but more focus on the benefits of staying. Flower power approach.
    Will not be simple I guess. Many opinions are entrenched. Here a couple of those from an Ipsos poll of October 2018, more than two years after the referendum:
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  2. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    You guys plan to post here non-stop till June? :/
    Imo it would be a better idea to let the thread die until there is any actual development. This show is more boring than even Eastenders or HIGNFY after it became full garbage.
     
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  3. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    Game of Thrones has started

    Break !
     
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  4. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Chieftain

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    Ever wonder why they did not stress the benefits of staying last time round?
     
  5. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    That's why I used "flower power" as words.
    The good intentions of wanting to have a non-polarising campaign and no fear-mongering.

    If you have as country benefits and do not want to have them anymore because of societal-cultural reasons, how can someone campaign against that without summing up the benefits that you are going to lose ?
     
  6. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Chieftain

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    Neither of you have answered my question.

    @Hrothbern: I would expect the Leave campaign to campaign on the benefits of Leaving;
    it being for the Remain campaign to try to summarise the so called benefits of staying.

    @Silurian: Expert opinion was divided and is very often biased by the current interests of the expert concerned.

    For example: when the Daily Mail's editorial policy was to regularly bash the EU in a way that even I found discouraging me from reading it; their experts;
    e.g. Peter Oborne was hostile to EU but when the editorial line changes, firstly in favour of 'May's deal' and then Remain; their published views change to match.

    Such Vicar of Bray behaviour, where the output is seemingly chosen to meet the purchaser' preferences, does not encourage faith in the "experts".
     
  7. Takhisis

    Takhisis rright

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    up yours!
    Lots of self-absorbed characters, unnecesary slaughter, something about foreign enemies, court struggles… the battle for Westminsteros begins NOW!
     
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  8. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    Do I read that well ?... to try...the so called... ???

    As I said Leaving means losing a lot of existing benefits. Benefits the UK, still in the single market and customs union, still enjoys every day.
    The Remain can list those up easily... just as it can easily demonstrate that the claims made in the Leave campaign are mostly rubbish
    (except ofc that the color of the passport becomes again blue, and the other self-evident lines)

    Here their main message:
    http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html
    And Silurian made already a post on some of the lies and unicorn expectations stated by the prominent campaigners. Boris Johnson ofc the hero in lying and misleading. The power hungry joker.
     
  9. Takhisis

    Takhisis rright

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    up yours!
    Yes you did.
     
  10. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Only 67% of people heard the infamous £350m lie? I'm distinctly surprised.

    Yet you keep posting here. As Gandhi (didn't) say, "be the change you want to see in the world."
     
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  11. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Chieftain

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    I don't recollect having seen that particular poster before. Frankly it is not very good.
    It fails to properly address the point about democratic self determination for the UK.

    What may be proven benefits for smaller countries such as Belgium and the Netherlands that are
    joined to larger countries such as France and Germany are merely claimed benefits for the UK.

    Leave voters tended to be older than Remain voters and developed their views over decades;
    many being able to compare life before and after EEC/EC/EU, and formed their own opinion.

    The idea that their empty minds were filled by the Leave campaign, is a Remainer delusion.
     
  12. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Who ever claimed this?
     
  13. mitsho

    mitsho Chieftain

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    There is also not one specific Remain or Leave voters. There‘s a wide variety of reasons that brought people to the polls. There are also more that kept people from the polls, so you would need to look at the reasons for that group as well to get a complete picture. And just extrapolating from how these things usually go, it may very well be that the decisive 5 % were „empty minds that were filled by the Leave campaign“. Though of course I expect the other side had their fair share of platitudes as well...
     
  14. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    According to Edward, every Leave voter is a unique flower, but every Remain voter seems to think alike.
     
  15. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    Yes
    And that's fine for both the Leave as Remain voters, as for the ones that did not vote.

    But we were talking about the campaigns !!!

    As I mentioned earlier... where is the formal document of the campaign ?

    I would expect one of two:
    A. The government takes responsibility to gather the arguments of both camps and after enough meetings with both camps produces a document with the pro's and con's, before the campaign.
    B. Both produce a comprehensive document before the campaign, so that the people can compare, based on arguments both campaign groups are committed to.
    And I would expect in case B. that the government would arrange proper studies to be done and make them public, and announce that clearly before the referendum.

    As it happened it was a complete chaos, a diarhee of rhetorical arguments and expectations that could not stand the scrutiny of fact checks.
    The no-plan gamble of Cameron to start the whole affair, to put it sharp.... the no-plan referendum questions and campaign preparation of Cameron, the no-plan "what to do now" after the referendum (well HE resigned), the no-plan triggering of Art 50.

    And despite that amateuristic bumbling... that 52%-48% is written in stone !

    When that confirmatory referendum would be held, it would be advisable to learn from other countries doing such things for many years, and get a consensus in Parliament how the UK should do it.

    Make a plan !
     
  16. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    Is comment needed ?

    Perhaps mr Liam Fox ?

    Mr Fox... any comment on that ?
     
  17. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Warlord

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    Well he's a nazi obvs
     
  18. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    If you're a libertarian for free speech but only ever defend the speech of specific people, what are you?
     
  19. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    yes
    The Good Friday agreement being realised was certainly helped by the US.

    Nanci Pelosi is coming with a Congressional delegation and is going to speak at the House of Commons, that exists this year (TIL) 100 years, and was apparently founded before Ireland was finally independent.
    With Nanci Pelosi downplaying a UK-US FTA deal when the Irish border is not settled...
    Corbyn says that the talks with May are stalled because of her red lines, and the Tory drive for a deregulated low-tax society helped by a UK-US FTA... and indicates to see more future in the parliamentary initiatives.
    He is now more switching to the EU elections:
    And Rees-Mogg is not bothered at all by such trivial developments and sees in his sister the perfect future PM of the UK.

    Schermopname (2799).png

    I saw a month or two back a poll that checked how good the UK people were informed, were understanding the "details" of Brexit.
    With the questions AFAIK "have you heard off" and "do you understand what it means"
    It was flabbergasting.
    The most elementary points such as Withdrawal deal, May deal, no-deal, hard-Brexit, etc, 10 in total, had IIRC typical around 15% people that had not heard about it, and another 15% that did not understood what it would mean.
    Hard Brexit scored best.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  20. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Lol, Mogg by now has no issue retweeting something that calls his pm "the maybot" :rotfl:

    Still, imo this thread is overkill when there are no news.
     

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