Brexit Thread VI - The Knockout Phase ?!?

[Ironsided]

The labour tribes I see are on the one hand and most vocal “the remainers” who just can’t get enough of accusing Corbyn for a Brexit he worked against but not “hard enough” and on the other hand the “brexiteers” who for the most part are biding their time sharpening their knives to do the exact same thing only armed with the most potential of arguments that they actually won the public vote on the issue.

Corbyn himself has asked the government what the plans/deals/ideas are so that he and the Labour party can form an opinion and/or a counter offer – but there is nothing to counter on to begin with. There is a big bag of nothing. Labour want’s general elections and a shot at winning and do the damned negotiation themselves but they can’t even have that. Meanwhile the same electorate that last put the Tories in power are now voting Farage, LibDems or green. And somehow that is not because of Brexit but because Corbyn doesn’t choose just precise their special correct side.

 

[innonimatu]

If the "international law" standards of the Nuremberg Trials were applied fairly, Alastair Campbell would have been hung long ago. That is the kind of person he is: a war criminal. He and his boss at the time. Labour's fault, and loss, was in having maintained too broad a house, keeping in this scum. Good riddance, and only too bad he wasn't expelled for the right reasons long ago. Still, the party is changing for the better.

I hope more members of the gang get expelled. Split the party already, it would be impossible to govern on the left with a nest of vipers inside. Now that the parties are fragmenting anyway the old line about "if we split the tories will win" can no longer be used by the vipers.

 

[sherbz]

It may well be but in that case the Liberal Democrats and Change UK will not be the place radicals will look to.

Thats why i said "to the ruin of us all"

I'm curious as to what you mean by this?

Basically Labour took the whole of Scotland for granted. They thought "we can do pretty much what we like and they will still vote for us because they hate the tories so much - and we can cope with the more rural areas voting Lib Dem - they are inconsequential. Then along come the SNP with their own brand of left wing/nationalist government whilst offering a viable alternative, and they hoovered up - virtually wiping Labour out as a force in Scotland. The potential is there for this to happen in England and Wales too - but with one crucial difference. The disaffected and disenchanted wont go to another centre left/left party, they will go to the Brexit Party.

 

[AmazonQueen]

The labour tribes I see are on the one hand and most vocal “the remainers” who just can’t get enough of accusing Corbyn for a Brexit he worked against but not “hard enough” and on the other hand the “brexiteers” who for the most part are biding their time sharpening their knives to do the exact same thing only armed with the most potential of arguments that they actually won the public vote on the issue.

Corbyn himself has asked the government what the plans/deals/ideas are so that he and the Labour party can form an opinion and/or a counter offer – but there is nothing to counter on to begin with. There is a big bag of nothing. Labour want’s general elections and a shot at winning and do the damned negotiation themselves but they can’t even have that. Meanwhile the same electorate that last put the Tories in power are now voting Farage, LibDems or green. And somehow that is not because of Brexit but because Corbyn doesn’t choose just precise their special correct side.

Remainers are hardly limited to just critics of Corbyn. They include some of his strongest supporters like Dianne Abbott.
Corbyn's stance could perhaps have been justified if he had managed to argue convincingly for a soft Brexit but instead he has allowed May to discredit that stance.
UK voters have been increasingly polarised between a hardline Brexit and Remain and Corbyn has failed to put the case for Labour's policy forward effectively so now we are left with Labour hemarraging votes from both sides of the argument.
Labour did badly in the Euroelections both in leave voting areas and in Remain voting areas like Scotland, Bristol and Cambridge.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Thats why i said "to the ruin of us all"
.

It would certainly be to the ruin of us all to back another bunch of crypto-Tories.
I'll stick to Plaid for the foreseeable future.

 

[innonimatu]

Bercow is still playing the court jester in that assembly of spineless incompetents known as the Commons. The members know fully well that more than half of them will lose their seats in the next election. They are too coward to decide anything. But still Bercow pretends that Parliament can rule in or rule out something, anything concerting brexit.

The only thing Parliament can do is dismiss the government and force a new election. They should have done that months ago, but they're too scared to face the voters. And totally, utterly shameless about it.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Bercow is still playing the court jester in that assembly of spineless incompetents known as the Commons. The members know fully well that more than half of them will lose their seats in the next election. They are too coward to decide anything. But still Bercow pretends that Parliament can rule in or rule out something, anything concerting brexit.

The only thing Parliament can do is dismiss the government and force a new election. They should have done that months ago, but they're too scared to face the voters. And totally, utterly shameless about it.

For once I agree with innonimatu

 

[innonimatu]

I'm also going to say, again: the only solution out of the impasse is to exit and then negotiate something new with Brussels. They say they wont renegotiate the widrawal agreement? Fine, leave without one, rip it apart. Then Brussels either negotiates post-exit agreements with the UK, or they won't. But they will be forced to accept that the process is a new one.

The relation between the UK and Brussels was always bound to be adversarial, and the UK only weakens itself in remaining hung on an impasse.

 

[Takhisis]

For once I agree with innonimatu

the only solution out of the impasse is to exit

There you go, back to normal.

 

[AmazonQueen]

I'm also going to say, again: the only solution out of the impasse is to exit and then negotiate something new with Brussels. They say they wont renegotiate the widrawal agreement? Fine, leave without one, rip it apart. Then Brussels either negotiates post-exit agreements with the UK, or they won't. But they will be forced to accept that the process is a new one.

The relation between the UK and Brussels was always bound to be adversarial, and the UK only weakens itself in remaining hung on an impasse.

here I wouldn't agree but at least an election would hopefully give a UK leader some credibility in following their chosen course, something May has obviously lacked.

 

[Takhisis]

Corbyn was put on the list of Labour leader candidates by many that do not 100% agree to his kind of Labour, but did want a good "dose" of it to counterbalance the Blair effect (the social-liberal potpouri).
My feel for the current situation is that within Labour there is still good (enough) support for the general agenda of Corbyn. And yes, there are ofc some social-liberals within Labour that try to benefit from the Brexit situation.

Ah, yes, there's always some who'd rather see the party god down rather than see others take control of it.

Good post Tak (…and Hroth – I’m gonna have to at some time reuse “social-liberal potpuri” it’s a good neutral term when you want to be subtle and sensitive).

My post was actually not directed at Ajidica, the person, it could as easily have been sherbz or anyone else with a paper thin analysis of what Corbyn and the momentum behind him stands for. The populist and media-driven Corbyn bashing has become a big red blanket for me, I admit that. I have no opinion about splitting labour or not. It’s to foreign and I’m certainly not qualified to question a person (I trust) like Corbyn and his judgement on the issue.

To me the bashers are in denial about a fundamental reality – that at some point you have to get a more solid take on policy. Labour could have went with Owen Smith or any other smiley slimy phony who would have done exactly what was popular here and right now. Thankfully enough of Labour didn’t do that last election or the time before that. My hope is that there is a proper social democratic core forming in the labour party and that it will slowly grow again in this time of dire need.

So what is proper social democracy according to me, well, it’s less modern and flimsy and more traditional and ideological. Think of Willy Brant and Olof Palme. Old school but not from another age. They were so clearly against the backwardness, ills and deceitful nature of capitalism and in favour of a progressive socialist society. (I’m not saying socialism is the end station, just the next station. And they did not want a socialist revolution because much like me they didn’t believe it possible to govern people whose neighbours you murdered in domestic political warfare.) This kind of Social democracy is a very, very, very slow process and we are likely not going to live to see it in anything near fruition but we would be turning the tide. Turning the tide on issues that makes the Brexit issue seem like the insignificant piss in the ocean it actually is. EU or not, we are going to need a closer cooperation beyond boarders sooner rather than later. However you twist climate change, migration, capital flight the world cannot trundle along the national borders of today forever. If we reform the EU or dissolve it and replace it matters less to me. Issues of everyone partaking in democracy, issues of everyone having the opportunity to reach their potential, issues of inclusion and working together as a global society. These are the real issues.

This is what I see sprouting again. Not in Sweden, not in Germany but in the UK and US (Bernie) of all foul places – the very epicentres of capitalist greed and ultimately anti-democratic movements we are seeing atm. To me Corbyn represents hope for a new and better discourse about these real issues – in the British parliament but also beyond. The UK and US are also very successful in spreading ideas worldwide. English is a world language after all. (It’s not my language, which leads to all sorts of misrepresentation and confusion regarding my posts, I understand that, but I do what I can to clarify later.)

Yes, a ‘potpouri’ is an adequately succint descriptor for the two as-of-yet largest parties in England and Wales (I don't say Britain because they're doing horribly in Scotland and Northern Ireland has its own bunch of mentals). Both are big-tent. Labour still has some old-style Marxists (for a given value of ‘Marxist’ at least), passing through trades union leadership all the way to centrist business-friendly people. The Tories have a lot of occasionally overlapping right-wingers, from anarcho-libertarians who want there to be as little government as possible because ‘government=bad’ (see Tristan C in the US politics threads), to closet BNP, to those on the UKIP Party revolving door (the Rees-Moggs), etc. etc. who all also have a lot of mutually exclusive interests except for ‘we hate Labour’.

Until they don't sort out what they actually stand for they'll just stagnate there.

 

[sherbz]

Bob Ainsworth and Charles Clarke (former Labour home secretary and defence secretary) have now said they voted for parties other than Labour. Will be interesting to see if they suffer the same vitriolic treatment that Campbell did.

 

[Hrothbern]

As for now I think we witness the imploding of the Tories.
So far so good.

And I dare say this is somewhat parallel to the increased emptyness of the political stream set into going by Thatcher and Reagan... the last leaders of them grabbing to nationalist and right-wing sentiments as fig leaf for their lack of content (Trump, Rees-Mogg, etc). The standard recipe has become a faith only.

I am not worried at all about Farage.... his party will implode after the Brexit issue has been resolved.

What matters long term for the UK political landscape is where the fragments of the Tories will end up... whether they will (stay) split, unite as a right-wing fringe for 50+, or can re-unite in one big party and connect again to the younger generations.

If they stay fragmented and disconnected to the youth, it will benefit the Greens, the LibDems, Labour and the regional parties like SNP, etc.

And as of now I don't really see how the Tories can escape.

 

[Kyriakos]

I am not worried at all about Farage.... his party will implode after the Brexit issue has been resolved.

He has repeatedly stated that when brexit actually happens he will quit politics. Like the last time. I see no reason to doubt he will do so.

 

[Samson]

He has repeatedly stated that when brexit actually happens he will quit politics. Like the last time. I see no reason to doubt he will do so.

He was on telly a day or 2 ago, saying that Britain faces many problems beyond brexit and indicated that he will stick around to "help" with them.

 

[Kyriakos]

He was on telly a day or 2 ago, saying that Britain faces many problems beyond brexit and indicated that he will stick around to "help" with them.

Yes, i am sure he aspires to be part of the tory party, but it is almost certain he won't be (?), and any party he has won't get that many votes once some kind of brexit finally happens.

 

[Mega Tsunami]

I am not worried at all about Farage.... his party will implode after the Brexit issue has been resolved.

Not if we end up Remaining it won’t. Or even if we leave under Mrs May’s so-called deal.

Without a ‘clean break’ I could quite easily see Farage as the next pm a few years down the way.

Especially if (whether we Remain or Leave) we manage to get rid of Scotland in the process.

Earlier this year I thought I might end up having to hold my nose and vote UKIP in the EU elections. But along comes the Brexit party and it made it so much easier to decide who to vote for.

PS Not that I actually want Farage as pm. It would simply be the interesting consequence of the Remainiacs blocking of the referendum result.

 

[Kyriakos]

Farage as pm would be a beyond just terrible development, but is it really possible at all?
I doubt it.

Not that Boris isn't equally hideous.

 

[Arakhor]

If that was sufficient reason to do that, they should have done that fifteen years ago, rather than crowing about it now. Not just nasty, but incompetent too.

Without a ‘clean break’ I could quite easily see Farage as the next pm a few years down the way.
[...]
Earlier this year I thought I might end up having to hold my nose and vote UKIP in the EU elections. But along comes the Brexit party and it made it so much easier to decide who to vote for.

There is no such thing as a clean break. There never has been and there never will be. The fact that people still believe this is baffling.

I'll grant you that voting for a party with zero manifesto is morally more acceptable than voting for a far-right Islamophobic party. It's politically wildly inadvisable though, as you have literally no idea what you're voting for.

 

[Kyriakos]

If that was sufficient reason to do that, they should have done that fifteen years ago, rather than crowing about it now. Not just nasty, but incompetent too.

Hm, it seems you have also become a one-issue voter