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Brexit Thread VIII: Taking a penalty kick-ing

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by tjs282, Nov 1, 2019.

  1. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    You wouldn't like it, it's a country in decay. There are a litany of appalling social factors you couldn't handle...

    You don't really have to work if you don't want to.
    The dole is enough to live on, and it's allowable to work a little to top up your income.
    Very inexpensive health care and prices for medication.
    Public holidays for horse-races.
    4 weeks paid holiday leave + bonus 17.5% leave loading (because you might have earned overtime during those 4 weeks.)
    3 months long-service leave after 10 years.
     
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  2. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Seizing ham sandwiches as dangerous imports for lack of paperwork for the sandwiches - even as dairy products with paperwork transit through the allegedly dangerous territory). The magic of paperwork over animal pathogens...
    Petty and vindictive behavior under cover of bureaucratic correctness, you know you've arrived at the EU! And of course it had to be the dutch. The UK better reciprocate, that's the only language that makes them back off.
     
  3. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Super Moderator

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    You know, Inno, as this year's resolution, maybe you could try not to instantly post vitriol about the EU any time you think it's even vaguely relevant.
     
  4. really

    really Deity

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    https://english.elpais.com/brexit/2...to-eliminate-gibraltar-border-checkpoint.html
    So in the draft Spain - Gibraltar agreement it looks like Gibraltar will join the customs union and schengen, all the while protecting it's sovereignty.

    Brexit really is the gift that keeps on giving.

    In Northern Ireland the DUP aren't happy with the implementation of the Brexit that they so badly wanted:
    https://mobile.twitter.com/eastantr...6?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet
     
  5. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Oh the english were smart, 4 years with a huge poison put in: "Gibraltar will have to apply “substantially” the same duties and trade policy measures as the EU, which includes customs, excise and value-added tax legislation, prohibitions and restrictions for security reasons, and sharing reliable statistics on its imports with the EU." In 4 years it will be people in Gibraltar demanding the border again. And the spanish think they got nearer to get it back! Well played.
     
  6. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Super Moderator

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    As incredible as it may be, not everyone shares your visceral, undying hate for the EU and all its machinations.

    Besides which, I don't believe that "the English" (by which I assume you mean the Govt) were smart in the slightest - that would be against all precedent over the last 14 months.
     
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  7. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    I had a hard time understanding that post until I got that you don't count the people from Gibraltar as English. What nationality do they hold otherwise? And are you elsewise saying that only the English have anything to say in the UK?

    Ok, this might be nitpicking, but I have another question for you innominatu with regards to the ham sandwiches: Which rules do you think should only be hold up selectively by officers of the Dutch state / the European union? And who can decide which rules to apply and which not? It was the UK that wanted out of the European Union exactly to be able to apply different "tariffs and standards", and that is what these veterinary safety rules are. Not being able to move such products freely is exactly the prize you pay for that freedom. The only way to combat it is to create a common economic area in whose borders the same standards are applied or where there's an equivalency treaty. So, again, do you really fault custom officers for following the law? If you don't like the law, try to change it, but don't place the officers of the state whose task is just to make sure the laws are followed.
     
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  8. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Mercenary nationality :p
    It's one of those modern "pirate heavens", gambling especially liked to set up shop there. But not a a particularly bad lot. Anyway, my feeling from the announced terms of the thing is that the UK government is betting on a reaction of the locals against having to comply with more EU regulations. That way they demand the distancing from Spain rather than anyone saying the UK is imposing it on them. It's an old strategy actually, so Boris doesn't deserve special credit.

    It's petty to quote the sanitary regulations as a thing on this one. The UK serves as the "land bridge" still for Irish traffic. If there is sanitary safety in EU merchandise to transit through it, if truck tires do not carry animal pathogens (and that very much has been a spread vector for some epidemics!), why make an issue of the driver's sandwiches? Totally petty.
     
  9. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    But that's no change from the way it is handled now. They already apply to EU regulations whereas the UK "mainland" will be far away so not noticeable for them? I also find it truly wild that you make this distinction between the UK and Gibraltar. Either there are nation states worthy of "sovereignty" or Gibraltar is not really British. I for once would not want to live in a state that plays such games with the common welfare as you describe.

    Sure it is, but then life isn't fair. I don't think the two examples are comparable. As far as I know, there is no directive yet on truck tires carrying pathogens. If there is ample evidence (information gathering), it will be brought to attention to the politicians (agenda setting) who will write that directive (policy formulation) and enact it (political decision making) and finally the custom officers will then have to clean every tire at the border (policy implementation). The tires don't have anything to do with the ham sandwiches. Which btw are less about disease and more about food safety, as they are intended to be eaten. But the thing is again that you can't choose which laws to implement - pettiness or not. There is a certain leeway inherent in all human interaction, but when you are already checking a truck, I think it's better to apply the whole list. That's what I'd want. I see that as a good thing - not something bad. Consistency.
     
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  10. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    And that's why I would probably not enjoy living in Switzerland: you guys are too stiff in attitude about the formality of laws :D in fact there is a lot of leeway in applying laws. Even in Switzerland where the whole system is almost uniquely flexible - what, getting citizenship on a vote by locals? Not that I'm complaining, just pointing out that it's not a one-size-fits-all.

    The ham sandwiches were not "imports" for sale, the could have almost as easily came inside the driver's bellies, it was just a matter of timing. I maintain this is bureaucrats being deliberately petty.

    On Gibraltar, it's just more of the same as has been for three centuries. _It was always a special territory and believe me the locals want it so. Else hey would have moved away. My opinion - and as I've said of others past, which mostly came to pass, time will tell - is that they won't find themselves happy with this arrangement, but don't know it yet. It'll be up for revision soon.
    The spanish government could make an extra effort to make them happy and finally have Gibraltar fall into Spain's lap. Unfortunately things are though and getting worse in Spain, I don't think they have either the focus or the political capital to expend in buying out the people of Gibraltar.
     
  11. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Super Moderator

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    They're already unhappy with the pro-Brexit situation, given that 96% of them voted to stay in the EU.
     
  12. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    The real reason was that proper British ham sandwiches should be dry, with the bread curled up the corners.
    Lest We Forget: This slippery slope started with bendy bananas.
     
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  13. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

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    Iam Shocked SHOCKED that Greater Germany is obsessed with following ze rules
    Next I will be shocked to find that the UK is being treated like a economic rival outside of the EU.
     
  14. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    What you basically say is that when an agreement is made in written, the ink barely dried, it is ok to breach it.
    How similar to the thinking of Johnson.

    Here a post I just saw on the Guardian Live Business discussion, describing that all the drivers and companies were timely informed about this food issue:
    Can that agreement be changed ?
    ofc
    But then on the UK-EU negotiation table with as result a new document that can be used in court or in a dispute council.
    In that way everyone is protected including every single customs officer.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2021
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  15. really

    really Deity

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    You're suddenly concerned about Ireland?

    We're grand for the moment, trucks are bypassing the UK where possible, using new ferry routes direct to France and Belgium.
    Those ferries seem to be fully loaded.

    Some UK based retailers are struggling to ship stuff here. M&S for example are struggling having a truckload of stuff with potentially hundreds of different products each needing paperwork - all being managed from the UK.
    Others like Tesco who manage their business locally don't seem to be as impacted.
     
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  16. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    But that is the law of the land? Voting on getting citizenship. Nobody said it has to be a just law or a sensible one. Using the leeway needs a good reason, to be humanitarian for example. Not being petty isn't a valid one alone.

    But why are you changing the topic once again, you switch from example to example that have nothing in common.

    Yes, I know, I was referring to that. That is why it is a Food Safety issue not an import/trading one. And I'm not so sure it is really petty if you scale it up from one incident over thousands of trucks and years of trade.
     
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  17. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    With all the issues now (visible) on the rules of origin.
    This was all well known in advance as most likely outcome from the moment the position of May became impossible under pressure of the ERG and Johnson.
    Here below a screenshot of tweet of Faisal Islam, editor economy of the BBC, on that preparation and the rules of origin issue yesterday: "
    I made long time ago posts describing how we prepared in NL for the final moment of true Brexit.
    That included a sector analysis of the impact before the referendum and was followed up with all relevant associations (business sectors, trade unions, local-regional authorities, workers councils) in doing the details to prepare. The Dutch government faciliating with time from public agencies and money for consultants that SME could freely use to adapt and transform. Ports, like Rotterdam and general software getting extra attention. Everything aimed at protection of jobs, minimising damage by handling the obstructions, re-routing suppliers & customers, getting in the new opportunities as well. And yes also the addition of customer officers.
    The Dutch version of the Rhineland model in homework mode during these 4-5 years, and not much work or attention at the national political stage because everybody on the ground knew what to do and had the means for that.
    Not perfect... not picked up in well advance by all 80,000 companies in NL exporting to the UK... but good enough.

    Schermopname (310).png
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2021
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  18. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    Its Holyhead he should be concerned for. One port that has pretty much lost its reason for existence.
     
  19. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Deity

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    It is not possible to debate with a sentence that has three levels of ambiguity.
     
  20. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Drivers won't starve to death because they can't cart ham sandwiches across the border. But the measure itself is petty vindictiveness. And taken out on people who already have an hard job to do and making it harder just because. The sanitary excuse is exactly that, an excuse.

    If the EU was serious about sanitary measures it'd be controlling its borders about covid, the biggest threat, economic or sanitary, there is right now. These drivers would not even be able to cross as they do now. But the EU governments and institutions have been making an effort to block even so much as putting up that to public discussion in national politics. And now they' are extremely concerned about the sanitary implications of ham sandwiches. It really says it all about the current european construct.
     

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