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Brexit Thread VIII: Taking a penalty kick-ing

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by tjs282, Nov 1, 2019.

  1. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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  2. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Obviously being in the Eu helps with that. Every little austerity helps.
     
  3. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    It is shocking to me that Greece is so high, presumably ENFORCED by the EU, rather that in spite of the EU in the case of the UK.
     
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  4. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    It was certainly FAR better before austerity. The country has become a debt colony with no end in sight.
     
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  5. really

    really Deity

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  6. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Super Moderator

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    Wasn't that "third-rate politician" the one that had the website improperly registered in their name? What a shocker.
     
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  7. really

    really Deity

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    Yeah. I know their barb wasn't directed to an Irish audience but he could probably put that on an election poster and it would win him votes.
     
  8. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

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    up yours.
    That should be the SNP's new party website, to drive the point home. :D
     
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  9. Seon

    Seon Not An Evil Liar

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    https://www.theguardian.com/politic...dvised-government-officials-set-up-shop-in-eu

    “Andrew Moss, who runs Horizon Retail Marketing Solutions, based in Ely, Cambridgeshire, and selling packaging and point-of-sale marketing displays in the UK and to EU customers, is registering a European company Horizon Europe in the Netherlands in the next few weeks, on the advice of a senior government adviser.

    This will mean laying off a small number of staff here and taking on people in the Netherlands

    ...Moss said it was now clear that Brexit was not about winning back control from the EU but investing in it to survive.”
     
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  10. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    This is happening both ways: UK based companies facing cost issues exporting to the EU, and EU based companies facing cost issues exporting to the UK.

    Especially the SME (1-249 employees) and more especially the small companies (1-49) are screwed.
    What many people are not aware of is that small companies make on average small net profits, smaller than the increased cost from this crossborder limbo.
    From Statista for the UK small companies of 10-49 employees (the one mentioned in that article has 37 employees at a turnover of 3.5 million GBP) make as median 56,000 GBP net profit.
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/291299/average-profit-of-smes-in-the-uk-by-enterprise-size/#:~:text=When considering all SMEs together,found by clicking the link.
    Just as simple and rough math to get a proxy for that net profit percentage based on those 2019 statistics for the UK:
    If I assume that the median size of the 10-49 small business making that median 56k profit is 28 FTE (2k per head)... AND assume 100k turnover per employee... the net profit is 2% of turnover.
    From that same statistics source 80% of the SME was making a profit in 2019 meaning that the healthy ones make on average a bit more.
    Which fits my typical 5% (net profit in normal years) experience of thousands of SME customers I knew from my work in the metal industry in especially Germany and bordering countries.
    What is often "ignored" by macro economical people and politicians is that many traditional companies only still exist just above the waterline because they already exist !
    And do not need much investments anymore if you squeeze out what you have.
    (not that I necessarily pity older owners who can still sell of their withering business and retire nicely, but part or all employees are screwed in such consolidations)

    Here another article of today in the Guardian also describing the cost issue incl that company of Andrew Moss, giving more examples
    https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ish-businesses-being-pushed-to-breaking-point
    What I really find horrifying is how little in general political representatives and universities-thinktanks understand of industrial SME, how that part of the economy ticks... what it needs... what it hurts !
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
  11. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    I mean, how could that have been a surprise?

    Oh yes, they negotiated until the deadline instead of letting everybody have 3-6 months notice on the new rules...
     
  12. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Oh my, however can the Koreans exist at all, small and outside the EU as they are?
    Or Taiwan, which isn't even fully recognized as the independent country it is but somehow its small companies, not to mention the really huge ones, manage to do business all over the world?

    The political representatives recognize very well the mercantilistic policy of some countries within the EU, say export-oriented Germany, or trade-oriented Netherlands. They are not obliged to continue to play into their hands. EU membership has harmed UK industry immensely, of course exit will mean changes and those are going to disrupt some businesses. Some will adapt, and there will be space for new ones also. That is change.

    To pretend that "this could have been avoided" is fallacious argumentation. Disruption could only have been avoided by remaining locked within the EU, but the whole point was to leave it. Trade goes on and most businesses will go on, adapt not fail. That some will fail only shows that there was excessive dependency on trade with the EU, an entity that is not the "friend" of these people any more than any other in the world. If the EU bureaucrats are lobbied by importers that they really needs products from the UK they'll ease those imports. Those it doesn't really really need it's the same as with the rest of the world.
    Brexit as it was finally implemented came at the end of a 5 year process, longer that it should have taken. No one serious can claim to be taken unawares.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
  13. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    Sure, but there's a difference between jumping into the swimming pool and being pushed into it.

    Edit: and by the way, that's a very cold attitude to let countless of small companies go bankrupt, there are lifes connected to that. That will have an influence on social security. Not sure one would want that as a politician. It's not good optics.
     
  14. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    They don't screw themselves over with massively changing the basic parameters for a market like the UK just did.
     
  15. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    "cold attitude"? As opposed to what, make false promises and move on? What would not be a "colt attitude" for you? You'd be happy with some crocodile tears?

    The main problems with governments everywhere in Europe - and that goes to Switzerland's too where they've started to subvert the country's constitutional arrangements by ignoring some referendum results - is that they run by liars. People who pretend to do one thing even while they do another. Don't count on me to do what is politically correct now: to lie and shift political oppinons as a PR management exercise. Brexit had to happen. And some companies would face difficulties in their trade with the EU. That was unavoidable, unless the UK annulled brexit - either formally or through some "treaty of association" that would be BINO.

    I have explained at length why I believe the EU to be the root cause of Europe's current political and social problems. Leaving it is an essential first step to resolve all other issues. I won't pretend I want something else for the same of of this or that small business sob story published by the pro-EU propaganda media.

    It is not a cold attitude. It is a honest attitude. One which the government of the UK should have assumed from day one after the referendum, preparing everyone there for the exit. I can honestly say I wish brexit would have been will executed, I said here time and again that it would happen and remainders were only causing more harm by putting in in doubt.
    You want to call someone cold because of seeing now business people who were deluded about the preparations required for brexit? Blame the remainers who kept putting brexit into doubt, postponing and sabotaging it, and discouraging any and all preparations for it. Leavers were not the bad guys in this. And on discussing brexit here I was always straight in warning about what would come to happen: that it had to happen and postponing or pretending otherwise would cause more harm.

    And you know what else is being screwed up by the european way of doing politics? Covid. For exactly the same reason: our countries are run by people so used to lie and run away from handling the things that need to be handled, honestly, that they cannot put together a coherent plan to end the epidemic. Without border quarantines it cannot be contained and ended, but they don't want to allow that to become the norm. Not even so much as discussed. Therefore they lie and lie, make up obviousl ph ony plans, plans that don't work and have been proven not to work.

    Free of the EU at least, perhaps the UK will finally lead in imposing proper border quarantines. One epidemic control measure thing the european governments set in their small-minded oligarchic rut have been sabotaging for one full year now.

    There is only one freedom our oligarchy cares about: the freedom to expand and manage business empires across borders.
    They're very apt at disguising this expansion of the oligarchy as "helping small businesses" by planting sob stories about those - usually omitting how they have been increasingly chained to "international supply chains". And vulnerable not just to political decisions as brexit but to political decisions such as any trade treaty (where were the sob stories about the textile industry in my country when the EU did its treaties with asia?) or business decisions b some far-away CEO.
    I was already familiar with the hidden human cost of the one freedom the EU cares about. I hadn't expected to see mass human sacrifice - sabotaging the containment of a deadly pandemic - done for the sake of it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
  16. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    Cold towards the people losing their jobs now. You can't expect small and middle enterprises to plan for all eventualities. They can only do that when they know what to expect. That was on Christmas Eve 2020. They would have needed more time than seven days. See the anecdotes in the quoted reporting, apparently they are catching up now. But jobs will be lost. You are saying they are a necessary sacrifice. I see people not being able to pay the rent anymore. That is why it's a cold attitude, not to the employers, to the employees. I thought you were on the left side of the political spectrum. Apparently not.
     
  17. Seon

    Seon Not An Evil Liar

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    Nah, because if one thing's made manifest in the whole saga, it's that UK's being run by a gaggle of headless chickens no matter their position in the political spectrum.
     
  18. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    I'm not part of the phony, weepy left of causes without consequences. Those who go to a protest tonight and have brunch tomorrow. I know the costs of things and am not surprised by them. The cost of being locked into the neoliberal EU is much higher to employees than of leaving.

    The UK still has a neolib government, but they'll be able to elect a different one of they wish. Within the EU there is no such freedom. You can elect anyone you want provided they continue the same pro-oligarchic, corrupt and now openly murderous policy. Even Sander's modest plan of government for the US, not to mention Corbyn's for the UK, was entirely impossible to carry out under the EU "acquis comminitaire".

    @mitsho you're not a bad guy, most people aren't. But I'll say to you that unpopular opinion, you're falling for the propaganda of those who govern us. Try taking the time to read this third and last installment of a long piece about the EU by a veteran of UK politics an then I'll be happy to discuss brexit with you, what you think of it.

    But loose pieces that don't place things in perspective, such as this one of businesses facing difficulties post-brexit - they do not allow for serious discussion, they're designed that way deliberately: you're supposed to identify with the plight of those people and think "brexit bad". And woe betide anyone who points out that exiting was something necessary. That's the problem with media and politics: without full context there pieces become a vehicle for propaganda.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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  19. Seon

    Seon Not An Evil Liar

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    Yeah but they won't, because it's UK, and neoliberalism is endemic across the party lines because UK is more or less the origin point of the neoliberalism that more or less governs Europe.

    My expectation on the economic and political impact on England short-mid term is that the country will be sold out to foreign economic interest with lots of liquidity in the turmoil. Or that the conservatives will worsen worker and labor protection in order to attract foreign investors in some classic neo-liberal economic logic. Maybe it'll surprise me and actually begin to invest into its economies in a sensible manner. I doubt it. If I took one insight from post-modern theory its that there is no such thing as a flow of history carrying humankind towards any specific destiny.

    It's always possible that things are getting worse.

    Maybe the left will be ascendant in UK in a decade or two, but it certainly won't be by design of anyone in UK right now. Or they can rejoin EU. Either seems equally plausible at the moment.

    Brexit was bad, because it was undertaken for the wrong reason (primarily, xenophobia), with the wrong expectations (that it would, somehow, be economically beneficial for Britain), and with frankly disastrous execution. These are all things that can just be observed. It wasn't even just the remainers who sabotaged this particular political process because for much of the last five years it was the *Leavers* who sabotaged each other constantly for attempting to leave EU in a manner they didn't like. The *Leavers* had parliamentary majority, for crying out loud. Meanwhile, of course Labour and Lib-Dems would vote to oppose leaving EU when they are themselves largely overtaken by neoliberal interests.

    Whether or not Remainers worsened the process or if Brexit was a necessary step in improving the lives of workers of England is really a hypothetical/academic concern. It might be true. It might not.

    I'm leaning on it being not at the moment.
     
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  20. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    The world can change a lot quite fast, especially beset by a crisis such as covid. The UK may change course soon. Would that it changed more slowly because we didn't have this crisis. But it's upon us. I hope someone there can do let-wing politics (it won't be Starmer). Just hope.

    But on the past I can comment: the parliamentary antics. It was blindingly obvious to me at the time that there would be hell to pay with the voters for it. The GE went on to confirm that. It was suicidal for the L-D, and for Labour and Corbyn specifically. HE should not have gone along, that was the mistake that ended his leadership. Not the smears on the papers, the sorry spectacle in Parliament and on the campaign (second referendum) on the brexit issue. An opportunity to root out the blairites in the PLP was wasted, and instead the left within Labour capitulated.
     

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