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Brexit Thread VIII: Taking a penalty kick-ing

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by tjs282, Nov 1, 2019.

  1. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    To whomever pays, it's a global marked. If wild salmon from the pacific can be sold in Europe, why can't fish from the UK anywhere?

    As for theorizing about lower prices, are fisheries very elastic? Is demand very elastic? If not, how are prices going to fall?

    If access to those waters was not an advantage the EU would not be so eager to get it. Remember that in a negotiation the first trick is to claim that the thing negotiated is worthless. Actions will speak louder.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
  2. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Of course they will, but I'm fairly sure that you and I disagree about who will bow first. Chances are that it'll be a blond tosser in a poorly-fitting suit.
     
  3. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

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    Because those are cheaper despite paying the EU tariffs of up to 23% tariffs ?
    I would imagine that the UK fishing industries selling off most of there qoutas, employing cheap EU nationals and losing the Cod wars has much more to do then the EU dose for the state of its industry
    Its not like the UK sent warships into Iceland over fishing rights or anything /s
     
  4. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    I actually agree that Boris is likely to sell off the fishing rights in exchange for something else. But I'm not sure of it. If there are votes in holding on to them... the tories are interested in killing Labour, and they have the means to achieve that.

    @FriendlyFire Don't be so sure they'll employ cheap EU nationals. There were votes also in cracking down on immigration. I expect that will intensify. If business interests complain they'll be told to tale a hike. It's not as if business can quickly set up a competing party to attend to their demands.
     
  5. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

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    Iam sure there will be a lot of UK nationals wanting to work for 18hrs a day to earn £30,000 a year
    The sad reality is that immigrants fisherman work for as little as £3,000 a year

    The consolidation into larger more efficent fishing vessels has been going on for a long time now.
    Fish stocks are getting depleted and so the qoutas are getting smaller.

    If the UK was serious about restoring its fishing industry, it should stop sell off its EU Fishing Qoutas. It could have done this at any time.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  6. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    You really do hear the most ridiculous things sometimes.
    I'm not sure how the EU is to blame for Brits preferring food from China, India, Thailand, Mexico, heck, almost anywhere to traditional British cuisine.
     
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  7. Chukchi Husky

    Chukchi Husky Lone Wolf

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    Britain has become dependent on foreign food imports, before World War II Britain was completely self sufficient. Britain can provide enough food for all the people living in Britain if it wasn't for joining the EU along with all the other problems that happened after World War II.
     
  8. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    It could provide enough food for everyone living in the UK whilst a member of the EU if British people wanted to eat only food produced in the UK.
    The EU is hardly to blame if British people want to eat a wider variety of food than was available in the past and if you're proposing some sort of siege economy without any foreign produce I doubt many people would welcome that.
     
  9. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

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    Is that what the Brexiteers are telling everyone ?

     
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  10. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    AFAIK the last time the UK was selfsupporting with food was somewhere in the 18th century
     
  11. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    "A two Michelin-starred chef who has been in the UK for 23 years says he now feels “unwelcome” after his application to remain in the country after Brexit was refused." Well, I guess he's just the wrong sort of person for our upcoming brave new world, eh?

    Whilst we're at it, here's more things that Brexiteers aren't telling you about Johnson's epic belly flop over the Irish Problem:

    The “straightforward” document that Northern Irish businesses will need to complete to send goods to Great Britain after Brexit is a complex form that includes 31 data elements, it can be revealed. The FTA’s head of European policy, Pauline Bastidon, said: “There are up to 31 data elements in an exit summary declaration required to take goods out of the EU now and post-Brexit (ie out of Northern Ireland) when the mode is road freight. Only two of these are optional, meaning 29 data elements are mandatory.

    Stephen Barclay came under fire late last year when, as Brexit secretary, he revealed the forms would be required even though it is a domestic trade route. The news infuriated the Democratic Unionist party, which had been promised there would be no border down the Irish Sea, and was swiftly downplayed by Barclay, who told the DUP MP Nigel Dodds days later that it was a “fairly straightforward” form. Days later Boris Johnson was accused of misleading the public when he told business leaders on a visit to Northern Ireland that they could throw the form in the bin.

    The exit and entry forms are mandatory and are the two parts of what is known as a safety and security certificate. It is required as part of a counter-terrorism regime devised to protect the US after the 9/11 attacks but is not applicable within the European Union. After Brexit, it will apply in Northern Ireland and on trade moving from Great Britain to the rest of the EU. Businesses sending goods from Great Britain to Northern Ireland will not be immune either. They face a form involving up to 45 elements. “Only three of these are optional, meaning that 42 data fields are mandatory,” Bastidon said.
     
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  12. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

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    Not to mention that common agricultural policy, ie protection of domestic farmers for reasons of food security was the main raison d'etre of the EU as such. The whole rebate thing was devised because joining UK did not have enough farmers even then to properly take advantage of it.:crazyeye:
     
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  13. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    Well... I found some article by David Colman, Emeritus Professor of Agricultural Economics at the University of Manchester, UK, giving a good overview over time on the UK and food self-sufficiency.
    https://www.agr.kyushu-u.ac.jp/foodsci/4_paper_Colman.pdf
    Here first the graph:

    Schermopname (369).png

    The text on that graph from the article:
    The main historical events underlying the pattern of change in Figure 1 are:
    * Before 1750 agricultural trade was very limited, especially in commodities which could be produced in the UK, the population was under 10 million, and mainly occupied on the land. It is therefore unsurprising that the country was largely self-sufficient in food at that time, although there was a great deal of poverty and food hardship.
    * The industrial revolution got underway in the late 1700s, with the mechanisation of the textile industry and growth of the coal, iron and steel industries. This led to a rapid increase in the urban population.
    * The Napoleonic Wars around 1800, unrest in Europe and some very poor harvests caused great instability in the price of grain and led to pressure from landowners for the introduction of tariffs on grain imports in the so-called "Corn Laws" enacted first in 1815. These were not particularly successful in halting price instability, but did lead to higher grain prices. The UK remained largely self-sufficient in food, but there was great hardship among the poor, both rural and urban.
    * A movement for free-trade emerged, led in large part by people from Manchester and the North- West of England, and agitation for the removal of grain tariffs and 'Repeal of the Corn Laws' grew. The new industrialists supported repeal on the grounds that it would help contain food prices and help them keep down wage costs and make them more competitive. Supporters of workers and consumers also argued for repeal on the grounds that it would reduce the price of bread. It may, therefore appear that there was an unlikely alignment of interests both arguing for repeal. However, it is a fundamental result of economics in competitive markets that the benefits of a removing a tax should result in a price fall which will be shared between producers and consumers. So the coming together of producers and consumer interests to argue for repeal are understandable. The Corn Laws were repealed in 1846, and an era of free-trade (with minimal agricultural support) in agricultural produce began which lasted until the 1950s.
    * By 1870 food self-sufficiency had fallen drastically. True the population had risen to over 20 million, but with free-trade, dramatic reductions in ocean transport rates resulting from the development of steam ships, and the opening up of the mid-west of the USA and of Australasia, cheaply competitive food imports increasingly fed the urban population. British agriculture entered a period of decline which lasted until the 1950s when a new agricultural support system (of production subsidies, but with no import tariffs) began to take effect. At the outbreak of the Second World War in 1939 the UK's food self-sufficiency in all food was less than 40%.
    * During the war food was strictly rationed, importing food extremely difficult and measures were put in place to increase domestic production, despite shortages of labour and equipment. Ironically, it is often said that, despite the short rations everyone had to survive on, the nation's diet was healthier, because balanced in terms of nutrients, than it is now when food is plentiful.
    * The 1947 Agriculture Act created a producer price support system based on "deficiency payments", whereby if the average price of, say, wheat fell below a predetermined support level producers received a subsidy payment equal to the difference on every ton they marketed. This applied to all major commodities other than poultry meat, pigs and horticulture. Significantly, free trade was maintained with imports able to enter tariff free. Nevertheless an increase in domestic supply did result after 1950.
    * In 1973, the UK joined the European Union, and began a five-year transition of agricultural support from deficiency payments to the application of import tariffs at highly protectionist rates. As Figure 1 shows this caused self-sufficiency in total food to rise to over 60% in the 1980s, and as Figure 2 shows to rise to over 70% by 1990. Self-sufficiency in indigenous foods rose to around 85% by 1990.


    Adding to that text:
    1. the 1815 final victory on Napoleon, taking out the last European opponent of the Brits on the global oceans, making global trade and dependency of imported food from colonies reliable.
    2. 1816 was a disaster for food production in Europe because of low temperatures up to 4 C lower than average. Also called the year without a summer and likely caused by the 1815 Mount Tambora volcano eruption in Indonesia


    Now... in principle the UK is facing again the choices they had in the Corn Law political wars:
    * go zero tariff and free trade to get cheap food for the masses (and have low self-sufficiency... and tough luck for UK farmers)
    * or get protection behind high tariff walls to protect domestic farmers and high national food self-sufficiency resulting in expensive food for the masses
    * or do the same as the EU did from day 1 of its existence: high tariff walls for food for non-EU countries to protect farmers & self-sufficiency and subsidise farmers to keep food price low to the masses.


    As you can see from your own history @Chukchi Husky , it is the very principle of unlimited free trade of the Brexiteer friends that has caused the low food self-sufficiency rate of the UK over the last two centuries before the UK joined the EU,
    AND
    and it is only since the UK joined the EU, and had subsidised farmers as well, that the food self-sufficiency rate increased, whereby this increase stopped at a similar level as many other EU countries.
    (only France is really self-sufficient in food)

    smile :)

    yes !

    I had yesterday no time to write something more comprehensive.
    (I always like to add some graphs or "evidence" to what I say)
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
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  14. Chukchi Husky

    Chukchi Husky Lone Wolf

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    They want it to go further. They want a return of manufacturing, especially the car industry, like back when every good product in the world was made in Britain, before the EU, Labour and the trade unions ruined it. They also want to cut off all ties with Europe and that all the member states of the EU should leave the EU, to liberate Europe from the EU.

    They keep telling me that people are ill informed.
     
  15. Loerwyn

    Loerwyn Warlord

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    Ah, yes, in Fantasy Land.
     
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  16. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    Before you do the lights out, you tell your children bedtime stories :sleep:
     
  17. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    There's one chap who lives near me, probably in his 40s, who seemed to be of the opinion that people should respect us because of our former empire. (I don't remember the exact context because I was so surprised to hear him say that.) He didn't seem to be fazed by the fact that that era passed 70 years ago.
     
  18. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    Also: Colonialism and Imperialism isn‘t anything to be proud about.
     
  19. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    I see, back to the good old 1870s when Britain was the workshop of the world.
    None of it was the fault of decisions made by British management ofc.
     
  20. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

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