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Brexit Thread VIII: Taking a penalty kick-ing

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by tjs282, Nov 1, 2019.

  1. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    aka banks :)

    More seriously, though, I think it makes little sense to expect countries to be neutral, or to not intervene in whatever way. US intervened far more publicly, by Obama visiting and declaring that remain is the better option. How would newspaper/magazine ads be more of an intervention than that, assuming the Kremlin itself was paying for such?

    I don't have to bother with Trump, cause I am sure he unwittingly will only help Corbyn, so good that he did so.
     
  2. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

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    There is a difference between openly holding a position and arguing in favour of it, like Obama did, and hiding one's true position while trying to manipulate others into supporting it, like Putin et al. are doing. What Obama said can be reasoned and argued over, while the manipulation goes unnoticed and slowly erodes the victims' agency.

    But no, I don't think we can expect countries to be neutral either:

    Dictatorships will always seek to undermine democracies, kleptocracies will always seek to undermine the rule of law, and totalitarians will always seek to undermine liberalism. Successful democracies, with rule of law and liberty, will always be a source of hope to the oppressed and exploited people such leaders rule over, and so is a threat to their power and comfort.

    Likewise, I have to argue that liberal democracies with rule of law can never, and must never, be complacent to coexist with dictators, kleptocrats and totalitarianism. Such coexistence is inherently unstable, as one side will always attempt to harm and undermine the other. For liberal democracies with rule of law to thrive and grow, they must thus always oppose, work against, and undermine dictators, kleptocrats and totalitarians. Failing to do so will lead to a gradual weakening of the liberties and rights many people take for granted, until they too live under people who oppress and exploit them.
     
    tjs282 and Yeekim like this.
  3. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    I think one reason is that if Obama visits UK and says "I think you guys should Remain", its pretty transparent who the pro-Remain message is coming from... Obama, and perhaps by extension, the US. So if you think the US and/or the Obama administration sucks donkey balls and is a bunch of manipulative wanks trying to trick you into doing their bidding... you can make a conscious decision to ignore Obama and his manipulations.

    However, if the pro-Brexit message coming from Putin/Russia but is being presented to you as coming from your own local newspapers and other sources you trust, you might be more likely to be influenced by the attempts to manipulate you.

    See the difference?
     
  4. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

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    ...never mind acting as agent provocateurs on both sides to further divide and antagonize other societies.
     
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  5. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    They can reapply to the EU any time they get a stable majority supporting that move, can't they?

    What they cannot do is claim another referendum just because they dislike the result of the previous one they accepted, after blocking its implementation, and preach about democracy.


    What I see is that when everything else fails, when arguments fail and a majority votes against entrenched interests, they invariably bring out the bogeyman and use it as an excuse to try to invalidate the results of a vote.
     
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  6. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I find your summation to be manichaistic to the fullest. Which is by itself pretty dangerous for democracy. I don't buy the Russia intervention theory insofar as it alludes to Russia interfering in any meaningful manner, let alone surpassing opposite "forces" - so to speak. What Obama himself thinks of remain isn't really the issue either, unless you think he visited as an angel to safeguard the british people, not US interests.

    Anyone trusting the Sun and the Daily Mail deserves no sympathy - regardless of who funded the ads :p

    Also, I seem to recall Time magazine naming Putin "man of the year". I suppose Putin morphed into the antichrist only next year, with the Ukraine. Up to then the russian hacking had worked its way deep into Time magazine etc, and when the virus was removed things reverted to normal hatred.

    FFS, even Obama himself won his re-election on things like mocking Romneybot about the latter being stuck in a worldview where Russia was the devil - only for Russia to be presented as the devil a few years later.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
  7. Takhisis

    Takhisis daria dance party

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    Aren't you an Evo Morales fan?
     
  8. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    You can still make jokes about spanish politics, they're going into the third in three years, and probably won't produce a stable government.

    Then again, neither will this coming one in the UK, possibly.
     
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  9. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Spotted this one in the wild just now...
     
  10. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Come on, that has to be trolling :)

    Anyway, is this new speaker any good? He does have a Only Fools & Horses vibe. He used to be deputy speaker as well (maybe more than once?).

     
  11. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Anyway, the ad looks great too :)



    By the way, apparently some moronic kid gave Corbyn some bit of paper to sign, and had written on it "I am an antisemite". Ok, some kids are dumb, but now it is national news with help of the Sun and other grown-up cretins :p
    I find it ironic that this is on the same level of truth that the rest of the smears against Corbyn have been, though. I hope he wins the election :)

    Any polls done already?
     
  12. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    It is all sickening :(

    the polls are volatile with a big random
    but BoJo has a big lead.

    but I am afraid that it is already over.

    The miraculous revival of Labour in 2017 took 2 months to go from low to almost enough to win.
    We have now only 5-6 weeks left.

    Let's see how the TV debate goes... and in how far that is for Corbyn still an election debate... or more a moment to nail BoJo to promises that can be shot down over and over during the next 5 years.


    Schermopname (247).png

    (light blue is the Brexit Party, the big dip for the Tories and Labour in 2019 during the EU MEP election, the sharp rise thereafter of the Tories the Johnson bounce just after being elected in the internal Tory election)
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
  13. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    The only thing we can rely upon is in this election cycle is that we (probably) can't rely on the polls to be accurate.
     
  14. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    The media being forced to give equal time to Corbyn (cause it is an election) certainly will help Labour get votes.
     
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  15. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Deity

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  16. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    On election promises of Tories... Cameron in the run-up of the 2015 election:

    Schermopname (259).png

    well... nothing happened (ofc)

    Brexit was a perfect distraction for rightwing UK: Not only to get in power in the Tory party, but also to continue the breakdown of the wellfare state aspects of the UK.
    And when BoJo would be PM, under that same Brexit veil, that erosion can easily be continued, whatever election promises he will make on "improving" living conditions.
     
  17. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Wait, so you argue that without brexit the tories would just improve living conditions/follow up on promises?
     
  18. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    No

    but that Brexit as distraction and on top devaluation of the value of political statements, offered much more room to do tthat, to forget the other promises of that 2015 election campaign.

    And imo worse than broken election promises like that one on housing...
    This !

    With all the principled discussions on Brexit-EU the past years... with all the lies and exposures of lies in the newsmedia theatre.... the most rightwing club ever has taken firmly hold of the Tory party and has a good chance on a 5-year term.
     
  19. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I think thou doth protest too much :)
    And afaik your government has already spoken very negatively of Corbyn. Probably while watching re-runs of Top Gear.
     
  20. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Deity

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    Hrothbern & Kyriakos

    Those UK government subsidies for new homes benefited only the large house building
    companies and the children of the already wealthy who could afford to buy them.

    It is arguable that the biggest winner was Jeff Fairburn the CEO of Persimmon.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jan/09/persimmon-profits-chief-bonus-scheme

    It is not so much conservative or right wing ecnomics as crony capitalism.

    And in any case subsidising general demand in housing is a fundamental mistake
    in a densely populated country like the UK because it will always drive up
    prices and profits to a much greater extent than increase house building..
     

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