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Brexit Thread VIII: Taking a penalty kick-ing

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by tjs282, Nov 1, 2019.

  1. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    Its true they benefit the most.
    However many small farms are only viable because of the subsidy they receive.
    The effects of our changing from a production subsidy to an environmental subsidy combined with a trade deal with the US will probably mean only the largest, most efficient and least concerned with the environment and animal welfare will survive as farmers with others either going under or converting to a mixture of rewilding, tourism, and very expensive speciality products.
     
  2. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Deity

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    The political movement from production to environmental subsidies started well before the UK left the EU.

    Its active continuation seems to be a decision made by conservative government ministers under the undue influence of
    ecologically correct advisers and lobbyists who forget that the primary purpose of farming is to produce food for us to eat.

    It is certainly not a direct consquence of Brexit, it is more a consequence of the persistent post referendum
    anti-democratic opposition to Brexit precluding the proper consideration of post Brexit options for UK agriiculture.
     
  3. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

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    You know the claim that the EU wants the ECJ to be the arbiter in trade disputes with the UK is a lie, right?

    For everyone else who have been misled:
    • What the EU wants is for the ECJ to be the highest authority in interpreting EU laws.
    • Trade disputes would still be settled in a regular arbitration court (unless the UK for some reason wouldn't want that).
     
  4. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Deity

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    Well obviously. But who is challenging that?
     
  5. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    I'm certainly not saying its the result of Brexit nor am I saying that I think its a bad policy direction, but combine it with losing the market that currently takes 62% of our agricultural products plus opening up the British market to a competitor with a very different attitude to environmental and animal welfare issues to our own and I can see why farmers are worried.
     
  6. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Deity

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    Understood. I have myself a great deal of doubts about various aspects of this government.
     
  7. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

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    Here's a good and well-balanced 22-tweet thread on the EU negotiating mandate , by a former UK trade negotiator.

    Notice the opening tweet (emphasis mine):

    «Time to dig a little under the hood of the EU negotiating mandate for the future UK partnership agreement. Dull summary - this is the document you'd expect the EU to produce. It tells us of their priorities, and should not be confused with the final deal...»
     
    mitsho likes this.
  8. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Deity

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    I suppose you are referring to D. Dispute Settlement 160 which I have read.

    I am disinclined to view the document in any depth because I am not
    in favour of any such agreement whether with the USA or with the EU.

    The way I see it, if a future government wishes to provide state aid to its
    apple growers or its widget makers etc, that is entirely its businesss; and
    it is quite wrong for any current government to sign a treaty to prevent that.
     
    innonimatu likes this.
  9. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    No country is economically sovereign, not even the mighty US, so every country must surrender a little sovereignty to shore up the aspects of their economy in which they are deficient.
     
  10. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    yes
    The importance of trade starts for normal countries with import
    importing what you cannot do without, and importing what is really beneficial in terms of overall productivity or cost efficiency.
    And on top the import caused by "out of control" indulgence of your citizens who decide with their wallet to buy imported goods like TVs, Porsches, foreign luxuries, etc, and go on foreign holidays (=import),

    And then you have to use or develop perks to be able to match that money needed with export.
    And if you do not have perks from geography or history, do not have much of value there, you have no other choice than to sell your crown jewels (like minerals, real estate, domestic company ownership, rape environment, fishing territories, etc) or to burn allocate relatively inefficient your domestic resources (labor hours and investments) to get enough export money from low value volume.
    Which ofc means that those resources can no longer be used to increase your domestic prosperity.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
  11. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Oh look the russian bogeyman people from across the Atlantic make a showing. Shouldn't you be busy spinning the russiagate, or the new theories that Russia supports all democratic candidates except for the IC guy? Russia is also behind the yellow shirts, Salvini, Le Pen, brexit, any economic crisis that has been or will be, any election result contrary to the establishment in power, and probably this virus making the rounds over the world. Russia Russia Russia :run:with all that influence I don't know why we shouldn't all declare game over, the evil empire has won...


    Ther'es a bloody big difference between surrendering a little and transcribing any and all legislation produced by others by their majority voting, and submitting to the jurisdiction of a court controlled by others.

    That is an entirely disingenuous answer. If the ECJ is the highest authority in interpreting EU laws in the terms of a UK-EU treaty, then any arbitration would be bound to follow the interpretations made by the ECJ, rather than examine the laws and rules and reach its own decisions. It'd be a rubber stamp for the ECJ and bound to ask its "opinion" in unclear issues.

    I know that people thing the current UK government is not competent. But at least in sneakiness, and recognizing sneakiness, they're equals to those on the EU side. Won't fall into that trap.
    I won't ever claim that the UK is a victim, a sitting duck. Smaller countries in the EU have been and continue to be. But the UK is large enough to handle the continental heavyweights driving the EU to suit their national interests, meet them on their own terms.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
  12. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Oh boy, is "ecologically correct" going to become the new "politically correct"?
     
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  13. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    A political union is greatly different to a trade deal, but no one was saying otherwise. I was merely commenting on Edward's apparent allergy to any sort of trade deal.

    Given that you seem to feel that the EU is an evil empire bestriding Europe and inevitably involved in all things evil and malign, I'm not sure that you have any call to lecturing others on hyperbole.

    Besides which, the statement by itself is quite accurate - a weaker EU certainly does serve Russia's geopolitical goals. What those are at any given time is a different matter.
     
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  14. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Russia can't even hold on to all the the pieces of its former empire that it had initially kept in the CIS. Not to mention it has far more space than population to occupy it, only growing through immigration. Perhaps it's also because I'm in the piece of continental
    Europe furthest away from Russia, but I never felt threatened by russian interference. I guess that some of those in central Europe can still have cause to thing otherwise.

    But why americans do, it baffles me!
     
  15. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    I never felt particularly bothered by them either, but then the Salisbury nerve attack happened and clearly it seems like the era of silent assassins is over.
     
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  16. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    So on that you believe the tories. I suppose a common enemy works as long as the enemy is chosen wisely :p
     
  17. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    A Russian expatriate family is poisoned by a rare nerve toxin commonly used by the Russians at the same time that two shifty Russians turn up in Salisbury at just the wrong time for such far-off tourism? Yes, that does seem the most likely solution.
     
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  18. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I know that Britain has no need of more experts, but the case doesn't seem as clear cut as you wish it to be. It sort of died away too, curiously.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
  19. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

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    The consolidation of Large arigcultural corporations and the extinction of the family farm
    Each member state has long recieved the ability to distribute EU CAP payments as they see fit. It should be pretty clear now the direction in which the UK agricultural policy free from the EU is headed

    Imports of cheap agricultural products, loss of EU markets, loss of cheap labor, and now the reduction of subsidies.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
  20. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Deity

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    You must have been watching the Pirates of the Carribbean sequels!


    I refer you to the text in the article you quoted:

    Under a tiered system of reductions over seven years, farmers in England will face a 5 per cent cut next
    year to payments below £30,000, with stepped increases in the level of reductions on higher subsidies.
    This rises to a 25 per cent cut on any amount above £150,000 paid out to those with the largest farms.


    It is the largest farms that are to get the greatest subsidy cut.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020

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