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Brexit Thread VIII: Taking a penalty kick-ing

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by tjs282, Nov 1, 2019.

  1. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    The problem here is that „your own population“ is not monolithic. Say you are negotiating a treaty that will be bad for the fossil fuel industry, but help the Green Energy Industry. You want that treaty, you need it to fulfill your Paris Treaty obligations. But you know, if you present all the details, one lobby will organize a harsh opposition by finding a weakspot and thus sabotaging the treaty. It‘s better to be able to present a comprehensive package which requires the secret negotation. So, the best way is open declaration of intent -> secret negotiation -> appropriate democratic open process (ratification). But you can‘t just say, everything secret is a conspiracy.

    @really I got no time, but I do think this could also be of interest to the EU. See for example the additional treaties with Switzerland because of the ascension of Romania and Bulgaria. They have amended the process when Croatia became a member, but I do see the want of the EU that the treaty automatically extends to the new members and the want of the UK to have an appropriate mechanism in place there. I haven‘t read your excerpt though because of time constraints though... :)
     
  2. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Deity

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    The UK Parliament is too crowded for the 1.5 meter rule.

    The building needs major renovation but what is planned won't support the 1.5 m rule.

    They'd be better off to build an entirely new replacement Parliament somewhere else, but they haven't worked that out yet.


    I have not yet found that text, but I will take your word. Technically it is not a say, but a delay while the UK-EU
    treaty might be modified to reflect impacts. But building in any such inter-dependence merely complicates things.

    There is so much else I dislke in the UK draft treaty. Some of it seems to be due to cut and paste of
    the bits the globalists like, but much else is peculiar and implicitly reflects acceptance of EU thinking.

    I will provide just one example from the UK draft of the UK-EU Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement.

    If the UK government was to enter into a contract, provide a grant or a guarantee or a loan to a
    company primarily for the purpose of reducing unemployment in a particular unemployment hotspot,
    any clause stating that the company or its sub-contractor should employ 80% UK (or if NI UK & RoI)
    nationals on a particular project such as refurbishing local housing stock would be unenforceable.

    Similarly if a future government planned a guaranteed price guaranteed market for agricultural produce,
    like the 1947 Agriculture Act, it would be unable to require a minimum percentage UK national employees.
     
  3. really

    really Deity

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    It's the last article of the main document, added on as a ps I imagine.
    I understand the intention of informing the UK of upcoming changes but practically it should be very much an informing process, not a new negotiation.

    It really reflects the mess that is coming of the UK trying to create a new Switzerland like arrangement, rather than fitting into an existing established relationship.

    Edward - your position has been consistent and understandable. If the UK wants a free hand at things like food standards or agricultural supports, then yes it has to go it alone.
     
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  4. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Deity

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    Blimey, your Swiss lobbyists must be quite honest if they wait for the details to be presented before opposing it.

    In other more decadent countries, the lobbyists will try to insert or nobble an inside negotiator before the details are released.


    Thank you.


    More generally.

    Regarding trusting leaders, that greatest of countries never trusted its leaders inserting a constitutional
    requirement that all treaties be ratified by the senate to prevent a POTUS buying/selling Brooklyn/London bridge.

    And with the Donald there, aren't they glad.
     
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  5. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    :lol:, well yes, but...

    there's a slight distinction. The original asked for open negotiations from the start which would make the job of the lobbyists so much easier. They f.e. would know whether their proposal had been taken up and how the other side reacted to it. In other words, this isn't about lobbyists, but on the principle that closed negotiations are necessary. I still hold that point to be true.

    As for the other debate. A delay of entry into EU membership will certainly not be allowed by the EU. That would just be moronic. Three options then are left: automatic re-alignment, delay until the changes have been re-negotiated or an independent juidiciary. Nobody wants the third thing, automatic re-alignment would be a defeat for the UKs Brexit Government (but in the interest of "the economy"), so i guess we will have early information + more negotiations.

    Switzerland by the way in exchange for the enlarged market had to contribute to the EU development fund for Eastern Europe, but they negotiated for themselves a prerogative for how to invest those billion euros. It is said that the swiss part of the fund was administered better than the shared centralised EU one.
     
  6. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Deity

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    I agree which makes me wonder why the text @really identified is there.
    I stopped countng at my tinpot theory number nine.


    I imagine that is because the Swiss suffer less temptation to use it to meddle in political affairs.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
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  7. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    Smile
    Earmarking does work !
    but yeah... there is this issue of Pride and Sovereignty

    Some people talk now about a Marshall Plan needed for some EU members
    LOL
    That Marshall Plan did not leave much room at all... in fact it intervened into the civil services and their procedures etc of countries... into the very fabric of countries.
    Greece got because of the communist threat a triple treat Marshall and embarked into its strongest economical growth period ever, also called the Greek Miracle.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
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  8. Takhisis

    Takhisis brown-haired beauty

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    up yours!
    Ah, they want to jump to the top of the queue then.
    Strangely enough the Greeks emigrated to the US, Australia and wherever else they could find because there were no jobs and, of course, the country was a police state with one massacre after another. The miracle was for the elites.
     
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  9. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Funny you should say that, as last month the Guardian reported on claims that the US would demand a veto over any UK-Chinese deal as a price for a US-UK trade deal.
     
  10. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

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    There should be no problems filling out farm jobs now right Leavers ?

     
  11. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Deity

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    @ FriendlyFire

    First: and foremost the UK government has not put a bar on migrant workers coming to the UK this year due to Brexit.

    Secondly: any disruption to their travelling arising from Covid-19 merely demonstrates the foolishness of excessive reliance on migrants.

    Thirdly: there are an awful lot of students whose university education has been suspended with little else to do.

    Fourthly: our chancellor has set the furleigh payment rate at 80% of normal wages which is in my view a little too high.
    Many of those eligible will find that by the time they take into account not paying travel and other
    work related costs that they are financially better off not working.

    Fifthly: if UK farmers very logically anticipate that UK workers may be less productive due to inexperience,
    muscle wasting in lockdown, unable to work long hours because they have not developed the physical rigour
    through previous work, or unable to work long hours due to commutting time or family commitments etc, or
    may drop out due to attrition due to laziness or as their normal work resumes, then the remedy is crystal clear,
    they should recruit about twice the numbers of workers and pay them on a flexible basis for what they actually do.

    Sixthly: UK farmers should take the Covid-19 opportunity to diversify their laour force this year by re-including
    excluded UK workers so they will be better prepared when restrictions on low paid migrant workers come in 2021.

    Seventhly: I am reluctant to refer back to WW2 as I find all this VE day stuff tiresome, but the UK managed
    without continental migrants during WW2. IIRC Allan Brooke and others told their generals they had to fight the
    battles with the army they had rather than with the ideal army they wanted; and in the same way the UK
    farmers should look to best use the labour force they can get rather than demand the one they are familiar with.
     
  12. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    As per the bolded claims:

    1. How do you know they have little else to do? How does this, purely in terms of logistics, transfer into a labour workforce that entails both travel time and specific locations across the country?

    2. How do you know what costs are or aren't incurred when working from home? Office workers have to buy and maintain their own office supplies (and I can tell you from direct experience the tax relief is . . . well, only tax relief. Any expenses offered will be on a per-company basis and therefore not at the specific fault of the worker). And that's just office workers, and not factoring in the additional demands of having children home or any other costs and inconveniences from being holed up in the same building for more of the week than you would otherwise be. Regular wear and tear, for example.

    I try to make no assumptions, but it doesn't seem like you have experience of what it's like working from home at the moment. It's not regular working from home for starters, and for a lot of people it was imposed upon them regardless of circumstance. Full disclosure: I'm working from home on full pay, but my home setup is in no way designed for this. I couldn't imagine making it work with less money available to me.

    3. You should be more reluctant to refer back to a period 75 years ago or more, yeah. For the exact reason of it was 75 years ago (or more). It's a different world out there now, you know?
     
  13. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    That's what people said when the danger of a pandemic like the 1918-20 flu was pointed out...

    Just because one thing happened many years ago you can't dismiss it happening now. Address the argument, don't try to dismiss it fallaciously. If you think it can't happen now, why not?
     
  14. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

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    Go on then fill your boots up
    Should be a lot of UK Leavers wanting to sign up for 6 months contracts to live in a primitive Trailers and work 10 hours day out in rural countryside.
    Iam sure with the retention rate that hiring double the number will work out just fine, make sure to tell farmers this great solution

    UK had conscription for labour, government set out the number of hours and targets that industry and agriculture had to meet.
    Given the current UK government of Boffo whom you elected instead of Churchill, Iam sure that England will definitely meet the challenge and not screw up like they have with Cornavirus.
    Cause you know WW2 when you had like actual good leaders like Winnie and Montey.
     
  15. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    Its strange how recruitment and retention arguments only apply to bankers and business bosses.
    Need to pay them high salaries to attract them.
    Can't employ people to pick fruit and veg? It isn't the terrible pay and conditions that are at fault, its the poor who are lazy scroungers.
     
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  16. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Like how the boss of EasyJet can be paid a £60m bonus during the Covid19 crisis, yet somehow EasyJet doesn't seem to have the money to pay refunds for people not travelling during this time. That's not incompetence, it's malice.
     
  17. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Deity

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    I looked in our local paper for opportunities and there was only one agricultural
    job in our agricultural county Norfolk not requiring relevant prior experience.

    https://www.jobs24.co.uk/search-res...c=SearchQuery&jobId=LJA-80310951&viewedfrom=1

    The question I ask myself is why so few advertisements?

    It could be that UK farmers are already inundated with queries or prefer to let
    gangmasters and other forms of labour suppliers sift foreign and UK candidates.

    As it is I am committed to driving my wife to her care work and back, and minding my chldren.
    And at my age I couldn't manage more than four hours per day. I am sure the farmer can
    get a UK person who can work for longer without commitments limiting which working hours.

    When I was a child I enjoyed picking apples and plums and raspberries in my father's garden.
    I think I'd enjoy it still now, never mind that minimum wage, but I know I'm not competitive.

    Well that might be so in your case. I used to be an office worker before I retired, and when
    I occasionally worked from home, the only thing I had to pay for was the electricity powering the computer.

    The way I see it he probably knows it is going bust, so he is getting
    his winnings out as fast as possible. Selfishness not malice.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
  18. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

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    Why did you bother to leave the EU again ? Was it because immigrants were talking all your jobs ?
    Cause it sure dosnt look like it.
     
  19. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Deity

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    Perhaps it is something to do with democratic national self determination and about not been ruled by the
    european movement enthusiasts and their bureaucrats from Brussels, rather than alleged hatred of immigrants.

    From the aricle you quoted:

    That wasn't me, but it could have been very many people I know.

    The requirement to live on site is peculiar. In general; it is only military or offshore oil platforms etc that genuinely have that.
    It may be useful for overseas migrants, and for the farmer who can recover much of the wages they pay as deducted rent.
    But by stipulating that, it is the farmers that are rejecting UK citizens as workers rather than as alleged by the article headline.
     
  20. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Sorry, but deliberately withholding money (or, in this case, making it really hard to seek refunds) from its legal owners, many of whom likely need it far more than old Stelios, certainly falls into the malicious category for me.
     

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