Brexit Thread VIII: Taking a penalty kick-ing

[Verbose]

You do understand that a deal by definition is not a victory. We have not won. We are negotiating something that is meant to be relatively mutual in nature. If anything, the Conservatives have lost, repeatedly. I can only hope history actually remembers, because the only loss you (and folks as similar in their mindset to you) seem to think exists is the failure to execute a perfect Brexit where the EU gave us everything they wanted and we didn't have to do anything in return.

Possibly history might even remember that the actual EU off the bat offer to the UK was of a continued customs union with continued membership in the single market, which 1) perfectly reasonable and 2) an offer head and shoulders above what the EU has mace to any other nation. But the UK didn't want it.

Though I suspect the historiography might end up looking rather different on the two sides this has developed into.

 

[Kyriakos]

A @Verbose sighting... How are you doing?!

 

[Hrothbern]

The most striking news today with my morning coffee:
The BBC covering Brexit.

As you can see I clicked to: BBC, News, UK, Politics, Brexit

The main article is 3 days old.
The other articles are 5, 6, 6, 8, 11 and 13 days old.
The headlines ?
The Big Leader is disappointed and warns the EU twice. And those F*** Business companies are not doing their duty.

Apparently nothing much is happening

Nothing about Gove in limbo after two U-tirns in a row, nothing on what happens behind the curtains in Nr10, the Tory inner circle, the other involved groups, parties in the UK, some EU official telling confidential secrets to Katya Adler...
Just silence.

 

[Kyriakos]

I think the Uk would do well to come in contact with the Eu countries that don't care about the deal and try to get them on its side.
Then again, assuming one member-veto holds (another staple of Eu democracy; have one-member vetos only when it suits one member), it won't have to do much to influence at least one country.

 

[Hrothbern]

I think the Uk would do well to come in contact with the Eu countries that don't care about the deal and try to get them on its side.
Then again, assuming one member-veto holds, it won't have to do much to influence at least one country.

That's what the UK tried for the past 4 years.
I posted a year back or so a vid of Katya Adler here on one of the Brexit threads where she was explaining to the BBC readers hoe mightily wonderful that strategy would work.

 

[EnglishEdward]

...the only loss you (and folks as similar in their mindset to you) seem to think exists is the failure to execute a perfect Brexit where the EU gave us everything they wanted and we didn't have to do anything in return.

That is not something I ever expected or argued for.

There was this deal where the EU caved in to all of the UK's overlapping-and/or-contradictory demands.

That was remainer Theresa May telling business and Remainers that things would carry on as before while telling Leavers she was negotiating Leaving.
That contradiction was not something that anybody, Remainers, Leavers, EU or UTC (apart from possibly herself) could be expected to believe in.

I think the Uk would do well to come in contact with the Eu countries that don't care about the deal and try to get them on its side.
Then again, assuming one member-veto holds (another staple of Eu democracy; have one-member vetos only when it suits one member), it won't have to do much to influence at least one country.

Doing that now would merely further annoy the leaders who are on the receiving end of a call.

Having a veto does not mean that any member state can get the rest of the the EU27 to agree anything.

 

[Gorbles]

That is not something I ever expected or argued for.

What did you argue for? You were the one criticising "Remainers" for "Project Fear", were you not? How can you blame May for sentiments you yourself espoused?

 

[Hrothbern]

(another staple of Eu democracy; have one-member vetos only when it suits one member)

It's not possible to have at the same time democracy in a member country and have the same democracy in the EU from a "democratic" majority in the EU Parliament.
It is one or the other.
When the EU would be democratic, it would have to be a democratic Federation with some local self-determination in the countries.

But since the start of the EU until now the democratic legitimacy lies in the member countries.
The EU nothing else than a treaty platform for treaties between EU members.

 

[Kyriakos]

The EU nothing else than a treaty platform for treaties between EU members.

There was a time the Eu was taken seriously.
Hint, it ended with austerity. Now it is clearly a very uneasy arrangement, with deep divides. If another Britain-size country leaves, I see it being replaced with two unions, which may work far better (north, south).

 

[Hrothbern]

There was a time the Eu was taken seriously.
Hint, it ended with austerity. Now it is clearly a very uneasy arrangement, with deep divides. If another Britain-size country leaves, I see it being replaced with two unions, which may work far better (north, south).

I have nothing against two unions being North and South.
It will likely weaken Europe on the global stage compared to 1 EU with a satisfying amount of cohesion, but the current chicken coop has also negative effects on the global clout of the EU.
Better have a LAT of some kind.
The minimal step in that direction could be keeping the Single Market and splitting the Euro and splitting the fiscal and monetary discipline.

 

[Kyriakos]

I have nothing against two unions being North and South.
It will likely weaken Europe on the global stage compared to 1 EU with a satisfying amount of cohesion, but the current chicken coop has also negative effects on the global clout of the EU.
Better have a LAT of some kind.
The minimal step in that direction could be keeping the Single Market and splitting the Euro and splitting the fiscal and monetary discipline.

At least it would be less clownish and disgusting to have Germany as the eternal head of the northern union, sell weapons and build submarines for Turkey, to be used against another Eu member

 

[Hrothbern]

At least it would be less clownish and disgusting to have Germany as the eternal head of the northern union, sell weapons and build submarines for Turkey, to be used against another Eu member

yeah
Everything related to Turkey, Putin and NATO will be complex with North South... but that is also the case now. Erdogan very cunning in stirring up in that complex tension pit.
I just guess, with some scars from onset-WW2, that the Baltic states, Czech and Poland are feeling much more comfortable with the NATO-US than with European defense initiatives and promises.

I did not dig into the details, but submarines build for Germany are mostly project joint ventures of German and Dutch shipbuilders.
IDK about the Turkish subs.

 

[Arakhor]

That is not something I ever expected or argued for.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I recall, you kept insisting that we should leave with no deal and pooh-poohed any talk of negative consequences as Project Fear.

Maybe you've 'evolved' your position now, though.

 

[Verbose]

A @Verbose sighting... How are you doing?!

Caught the Covid bug in early April, but only a mild case of it, and am fine now, thanks for asking. Just promoted and busy with work (since I'm with an oxymoronic "medical university" and these are pandemic times).

 

[Samson]

Peers inflict heaviest defeat for more than 20 years over bill that will break international law

Peers opposing the Brexit bill that the government admitted will break international law have inflicted the heaviest defeat for more than 20 years.
A motion warning the legislation “would undermine the rule of law and damage the reputation of the United Kingdom” was passed by 395 votes to 169 – a majority of 226.
A total of 39 Conservative peers rebelled against Boris Johnson, including Lord Keen of Elie, the former advocate general for Scotland, who resigned over the Internal Market Bill last month.​

Nothing on the BBC news home page nor brexit page about it.

 

[innonimatu]

Nothing on the BBC news home page nor brexit page about it.

That may just be because the pees are no longer relevant. They'll be overridden i there is no deal. In fact without a deal the UK needs that law.
Lots of posturing as usual...

 

[FriendlyFire]

I have nothing against two unions being North and South.
It will likely weaken Europe on the global stage compared to 1 EU with a satisfying amount of cohesion, but the current chicken coop has also negative effects on the global clout of the EU.
Better have a LAT of some kind.
The minimal step in that direction could be keeping the Single Market and splitting the Euro and splitting the fiscal and monetary discipline.

I very much doubt any of the southern countries will want a single currency with none of the benefits and all of the risk.
Even if they, do I dont see it ending well for any of them. Each are better off with their own currency.

A Northern EuroZone would work, since everyone plays by the rules set by Germans with their obsession with Stable economy, low inflation

 

[mitsho]

Which Union does Eastern Europe join? Or do they get one of their own?

I can‘t really see a way forward to that scenario of a Northern and a Southern Union, but in the end why not. It seems clear though from the past 30 years that while the Economic Union is the driver of the development of the Union, its benefits lie on the political side and what it can force - say in the realm of social security or human rights. It‘d be a shame to give that up for a smoother economic development.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Caught the Covid bug in early April, but only a mild case of it, and am fine now, thanks for asking.

Pleased to read that.

Just promoted and ...

Congratulations!

 

[Mega Tsunami]

A little closer to a deal?

UK welcomes Barnier's 'significant' remarks on unlocking Brexit talks

A major step appears to have been taken towards the resumption of the Brexit negotiations after Michel Barnier used a speech to both acknowledge the UK’s compromises and promise flexibility by the EU, in comments described as “significant” by Downing Street.

Speaking to the European parliament, the EU’s chief negotiator said a deal was “within reach” and that he would “seek the necessary compromises on both sides” should the negotiations restart, in comments clearly designed to placate the British government.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...significant-remarks-on-unlocking-brexit-talks