1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Bribed Wars Ruin Games

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Zanteogo, Oct 7, 2020.

  1. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2015
    Messages:
    800
    After a short break from Civ5 I returned and tried to start a few games. One thing that I find annoying to the point I would just disable them if I knew what to edit are bribed wars, and how easily the AI accepts them and how often the AI asks for them.

    First off, I have to admit I play with the option of turning off AI aggression due to another civ getting closer to a victory condition. With this, outside of bribed wars, regular wars are cut down by about 50%. I like this because it makes when regular wars happen, they have meaning because they don't happen every other turn. So (unless the AI is bribed) wars occur because the AI is angry at you or because it wants more land, cites or wonders. It's nice because it's driven by direct cause and effect. So if I refuse to stop buying land, or wonder whore, I know the AI will attack if it's able.

    Now, bribed wars are different. They occur way too often, and if the trade deals the AI sends me are any indication, they occur over basically nothing. Civ's that I have peaceful relations with will turn on me, despite the fact that I have the ability to crush them. Often it's suicide and in the counter interest of the AI accepting the bribe.

    It's over used, and undervalued. For a weaker, or even for civs on the same level, going to war because of a bribe should be no small deal. There is no way these civs are gaining anything from this when they have to spend time replacing dozens of units lost when the bribe is a few gold per turn.

    I also find for some reason there is a snowball effect with bribed wars. Once one is used against you, you can expect 3 or 4 more over the next 20 turns or so. It's as if one of the AI has decided that it wants to move against you, so it just starts spamming the other AI requests to do so.

    Though at this point I would disable them if I could, I would rather they be "fixed" to stop the AI from overusing them. My suggestion would be to make them valued more. Again, based on the trade deals the AI sends me they are offering next to nothing. Often I will see 2 GPT plus an open boards to make war, which is just dumb.

    The AI should also weigh the military scores and active trade deals and routes way more before accepting. A civ that is going for a culture win is usually going against it's own interest attacking another civ unless that civ has more culture for example. It should cost a bundle to make this civ attack.

    It's also very immersion breaking. It would be like China offering Mexico $1,000 dollars to attack America and Mexico accepting.
     
    frktest, BliTTzZ, Erikose and 11 others like this.
  2. Patee

    Patee Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2017
    Messages:
    22
    Gender:
    Male
    Can you remind what to edit to switch off aggression connected to victory?
    I know its been posted ealier but cannot find it now
     
  3. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2017
    Messages:
    563
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Egypt
    I experienced this exact scenario in my last game right after the world congress was founded (i was on a separate continent with Germany and Arabia) the 5 civs i have just met all DOWed me after getting bribed by Germany and Arabia -Literally phony wars with no real clash happened but it cuts ties and makes trading impossible- .... Unti i found a solution which was just annihilating Arabia and Germany and it actually worked as i never went to war after that.
    But i do agree, the cost of Bribes needs to be much higher so it's not 3 GPT to ruin the game and suck the joy out of it.
     
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,904
    My only issues with bribe war is that there are no requirements you are held to. It is so easy (and in fact how most AIs play it) is that they declare war, and just sit back and don't attack.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  5. Revolutionist_8

    Revolutionist_8 Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2016
    Messages:
    457
    Location:
    Hungary, Earth, M.W. Galaxy
    Agreed, I think it's way too frequent and often just slips into the "annoying category" rather being a real threat. I think the AI willingness of accepting / offering one could be lowered.
     
    smorgasborgas and Zuizgond like this.
  6. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2015
    Messages:
    847
    Maybe accepting bribes to DoW civs that you have no "legitimate" grievances with (no border disputes, no CS competition, etc) should have harsher warmonger penalties. So if you are going out of your way to fight someone you wouldn't have fought anyway, the rest of the world should be more suspicious of you
     
    BliTTzZ likes this.
  7. Recursive

    Recursive Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    1,812
    Gender:
    Male
    @Gazebo
     
  8. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    8,272
    Location:
    Venice, California
    The requirement is that you can't trade with your new enemy, and your military and civilian units (including TR's) are now threatened. Why should it be higher than that?

    Phony wars happen all the time in RL — much more than real ones. That aside, I think you're all getting hung up on what a DOW means. Like SuperNoobCamper said, the AI is using it as a tactic to cut ties and make trading impossible. Sounds smart to me... so where's the problem?

    I have no idea what an AI charges for a bribed DOW. If it views you as a threat, I would think it's cheap. If they don't, it's higher. Maybe the numbers need adjusting, and maybe they don't. But that's about as far as I'd go.
     
  9. Recursive

    Recursive Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    1,812
    Gender:
    Male
    Okay guys, I've added options to DiploAIOptions.sql to disable third party war bribes (including between AIs), as well as a setting to stop the AI from asking human friends to start coop wars.

    If it annoys you that much, you can now switch it off. (Although keep in mind Gazebo is still updating third party war logic, and if you're playing with it off, you can't provide feedback for its improvement!)
     
    4CV, Skidizzle and Zanteogo like this.
  10. InkAxis

    InkAxis Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2020
    Messages:
    306
    Gender:
    Male
    Personally I think the mechanic is fine, the AI just needs to use it better, which the devs are working on.

    Perhaps there could be some way that you are actually paid for how successful you are? For example, you could get X GPT for every point of war score. It would be very difficult to implement but it would be interesting. Perhaps the X gpt would be a set amount, scaling with era. So you could agree to a co-op war were you are paid, but the amount per war score is set based on era. Would still be difficult to implement however.
     
    Skidizzle and Bromar1 like this.
  11. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2015
    Messages:
    800
    The phoney wars that occur right now would be the same as Canada declaring war on the United States.

    Maybe they can add tradable diplomatic options to denounce another civ, or even an option to refuse to trade. (Sort of like the embargo effect, but just with one civ?) I am all for more passive aggressive diplomatic options. My concern would be the AI just going nuts with them, sort of how often at some point in most of my games half they world will contuously denounce you..

    Speaking of which, remember in vanilla how the AI would sometimes ask you to denounce another civ? What happened to that?
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
    smorgasborgas likes this.
  12. andersw

    andersw Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,005
    Location:
    sweden
    I dont mind them if they required an investment and if there was an intention to actually war.
    As it is now it mainly ruins CS management and trade with AIs and the same for the AI in question at a far too low value/cost.
     
    smorgasborgas likes this.
  13. Uncle_Joe

    Uncle_Joe Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    476
    Agreed, I was just coming here to post about the 'tag team' wars. It gets ridiculous. I have Friendly relationships, trade deals, research pacts, open borders....doesn't matter. They DoW every 20-25 turns. And once one does, it almost doesn't stop. Half the time I am at war with either the entire world or maybe all but 1 player.

    The fact that your deals, history, and relationship doesn't seem to factor into removes any form of immersion and makes me not care in the slightest about actually trying to cultivate relationships. Sure you can try and get a Friendship Declaration but even there they eventually just remove them and then inevitably, declare war within a few turns.

    And yes, mostly they are 'phony wars' but occasionally I'll get hit by neighboring nations and actually have to fight. Beyond that, it's just a constant annoyance and it really detracts both from the game experience and the AI's progress (since I hunt down their sea trade and kill it off while they dither and thrash in the 'war').
     
    Erikose and Zanteogo like this.
  14. andersw

    andersw Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,005
    Location:
    sweden
    Yes I forgot to mention is that the AI is at big risk throwing away their trade routes going at war.
    The value of those alone is probably not worth the bribe cost and even if the AI gets those caravans for basically free it feeds their enemy (usually me).

    So there's (potentially) trade routes, CS friendships and lux trades that they usually throw away ... for what? (Im not sure of the cost)
    Have anyone looked at what it costs to buy a DoW from the AI?
     
  15. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2015
    Messages:
    800
    Go into your mod folder, the default location in windows is:

    C:\Users\emusk\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(1) Community Patch\Core Files\Core Changes

    (your login will replace "emusk")

    Edit the file named DiploAIOptions.

    Change the "0" to a "1" for anything you want to change.
     
    Patee likes this.
  16. zeofig

    zeofig Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2016
    Messages:
    93
    Quite often, I get 2-3 random AI DOWs early game, even while playing innocuously. This is extremely annoying and can actually ruin the game, as they often randomly have a scout in my base who proceeds to plunder and kill workers, or they kill an exploring great diplomat.
     
  17. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2015
    Messages:
    800
    You use great diplomats to explore?
     
    vyyt likes this.
  18. zeofig

    zeofig Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2016
    Messages:
    93
    Yeah I always send the first one or two GDs exploring (then they eventually found an embassy). They can go through borders so they're great for finding CS when your normal units can't get through. Early great admirals are also great because they can cross oceans.
     
    andersw likes this.
  19. General_Drax

    General_Drax Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2019
    Messages:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Bologna, Italy
    Nice trick with GD/GA. A bit risky due to spawning barbs though.
     
    andersw likes this.
  20. HellHound989

    HellHound989 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2020
    Messages:
    2
    Gender:
    Male
    Am I the only one who doesnt find this problematic?

    Using the 10-7 version, in my current game (epic, standard map, crowded civs), hit the Renaissance Age, and the world is starting to form into coalitions.

    I like the wars, as I have something to do instead of hit "Next Turn" 50 times in a row while waiting for buildings to complete. Plus, it gives me a reason to maintain and keep up my military, AND level them up.

    If I do have any issues, its the Defensive Pacts being an annoyance. Im playing the Celts (went strong Religion to the point that the entire continent im on is following my religion LOL), and I have a coalition with Ethiopia, Brazil, and Poland, sometimes Austria participates, against the coalition of Denmark, The Huns, Greece, and Persia. The defensive pacts in the coalitions has made it that anytime anyone DoW anyone else, the coalition gets dragged into a World War... and I love it! Its actually made it so that everyone is very hesitant to go to war now LOL
     
    Skidizzle likes this.

Share This Page