1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Bribed Wars Ruin Games

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Zanteogo, Oct 7, 2020.

  1. andersw

    andersw Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,012
    Location:
    sweden
    Defensive pacts is one thing (but also a bit busted because civs gladly pact with whatever civ), bribed wars a different.
     
  2. Uncle_Joe

    Uncle_Joe Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    476
    And I don't mind when Civs declare war for a reason (indeed after the love-fest that default BNW was, I welcome AI aggression! ;) ). But Friendly Civs that are bribed into DoWs for 2gpt or Open Borders or something equally inane make the diplomacy system useless. They gain nothing, often lose lucrative trade routes (that I make money off of in Plunder) and generally just grind the game to a halt (since I have to move a dozen+ ships every turn and be on the lookout for enemy units landing or straying into my empire).

    Coalitions are good. Joint Wars for a cause are good. Random DoWs by 90% of the world occurring over and over again gets old, removes immersion, and drags the game.
     
    Patee, Zanteogo and andersw like this.
  3. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2015
    Messages:
    800
    After turning off bribed wars and victory competition I honestly find global diplomacy almost perfect. It becomes way more cause and effect rather than being the victim of dice rolls and suicidal AI.

    Wars become way more rare. This may be a turn off for some, but I enjoy it because when it does happen it is way more impactful. Playing the peaceful nice guy civ is more of an option now. If you decide to be a brute though the world responds like your a brute with attacks of opportunity and collisions.

    The only thing missing, and something the contributors have yet to explain or address, is the strange fact that the AI is able to keep friendships moving the whole game with defensive packs and DoF all the way to the end. After the first two eras DoFs are hard to come by. The AI will refuse them if you offer 99% of the time. (in all my history of the game, only one time has it worked for me) It doesn't seem to make a difference how you play. They will make multiple DoF and defensive packs with each other but at some point only offer the rare one to the human. It would be nice if this was explained code wise, as the AI is generally supposed to see the human and AI players the same.
     
    Uncle_Joe likes this.
  4. Uncle_Joe

    Uncle_Joe Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    476
    Unfortunately, after turning off the bribe wars, the game has reverted to the BNW love-fest. I'm playing on King and to the best of my knowledge, there has not been a single war in the game so far and we are all in the Industrial Age. Everyone has DoFs and Pacts and Science Agreements are flying left and right leading to all of us rocketing through the tech tree.

    Note that I have switched it to '1' so they can still ask human players and vice versa and while I've been asked about a half dozen times by various AIs (for the usual paltry 2gpt or Open Borders etc), they have never actually DoW'ed the target Civ when I have not accepted.

    So I think I'm going to take a break and see how this shakes out in future versions. I really don't know what changed between G&K and BNW but the former had lots of conflict and quite a few wars (even out of the box) while the latter has been the love-fest/bore-fest since Day 1.
     
    DizzKneeLand33 likes this.
  5. General_Drax

    General_Drax Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2019
    Messages:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Bologna, Italy
    About the bribed wars: I think this iteration of VP is warmonger only. Hit or miss: either you get the critical mass (1-2 Vassals, ability to stay in permawar without your economy crippled) or you just die around industrial era due to AIs welfare yields spike.

    I lost the last three games on Emperor due to constant wars by AIs. It is enough floating slightly below the supply limit and it comes the killhuman.exe routine. As Ottomans vs Rome/Songhai/Zulu: they stayed peaceful all to industrial then declared all at once.

    This game as Celts (Epic pace, no ruins, no events, Communitu map with increased land and reduced scattering as tu_79 suggested, nice maps so far with extremely interesting locations and narrow oceans and canals) : I was on attack from day 1 (Pictish warrior/Celtic pantheon of War/got Order/Zealotry) and still the AIs managed to keep an interlaced DPs. At least no religious pressure due to UA from Spain and Portugal.

    Struggling on Emperor but doing very fine on King so the increased difficulty was expected.
     
  6. andersw

    andersw Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,012
    Location:
    sweden
    I think disabling bribe wars did the trick for me, need to test another game (or part of), was better than removing the warmonger penalty.
     
  7. andersw

    andersw Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,012
    Location:
    sweden
    Seems game mostly works as I like with no bribes, (Im still not a fan of the excessive nonsensical defensive pacts).
    But perhaps bribes could be meaningful if they actually had a cost to it, the price for bribe seems way way too low, something like 1gpt and open borders.

    If the AI send you an offer to dow, what would be a reasonable price, 10,20,50 gpt? 1,3,5 lux? a city? a tech? a handful of techs? 1k flat gold?
    I guess the bribe also needs era scaling to be meaningful.
    Or does it not matter, ie will one AI get bribed and the bribe gets passed on to the next AI via dow bribe and so on?
     
  8. dostillevi

    dostillevi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2009
    Messages:
    90
    All of this sounds like AIs aren't valuing peace with the war target very well. It seems to me that a war dec on a neutral or friendly civ should cost at least as much as the cost of any active agreements with the target civ, and probably more if the AI intends to maintain peaceful. This is probably a little tricky since agreements come to an end before being renewed, leaving open a window for bribes.
     
    JamesNinelives and andersw like this.
  9. Tekamthi

    Tekamthi Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2016
    Messages:
    467
    OP has a good point about bribed wars being too common, though i do think they should be available (but rare), and there should be a less severe option via diplomacy to negotiate some mallus against another civ... Civ 4's "stop trading with", if it were available in civ 5, should occur at roughly the rate bribed wars currently do -- effectively most of the distant bribed wars serve the "stop trading with" function more than anything else anyway.

    Ideally, leave the bribed wars for situations where they actually have some strategic relevance, and where the players involved plan to actually commit some at minimal resources towards military interaction with their common target.

    re: the proposed workaround of enabling/disabling bribed wars altogether, though, I lean towards leaving them enable, even in current imperfect state
     
    XSamatan and LifeOfBrian like this.
  10. General_Drax

    General_Drax Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2019
    Messages:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Bologna, Italy
    From what i have experienced bribed wars are directly connected to how the AIs value Human military power.

    In my current game I had the lead through the whole game: my (once) powerful neighbour kept asking me to declare war on all others on my continent and as soon as she could (Dido) offered a DP to me. After medieval no one asked me to wage war, well, they were either my vassals or my enemies in a current war :smoke:.
     
  11. Aquila SPQR

    Aquila SPQR Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2009
    Messages:
    509
    Location:
    Central Europe
    I'm totally new to VP and I find this part of the FAQ:

    "AI is opportunistic and will attack the player when weak. Increase your military might building or upgrading to more advanced units."

    not true. I'm the second most powerful civ and from time to time much weaker civs declare war on me, even though they live on another continent and have no means to actually attack me. Too bad I've learned about editing DiploAIOptions now and not earlier. Maybe it'd be a good idea to post it somewhere in the FAQ?
     
  12. andersw

    andersw Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,012
    Location:
    sweden
    It probably because of broken bribes.
    It didnt used to be this way, but bribes aside its also probably difficult to find a good spot between too passive and too agressive.
     
  13. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2015
    Messages:
    800
    I can say with 100% certainly that the AI weighs military strength pretty lightly when it comes to being bribed right now.

    Because you cannot bribe a civ to attack someone they have DoF with, it feels like the human player gets a big fat target on their back. For some unexplained reason, the AI loves to make DoFs with other AI's during the whole game but only during the first two era's with the human. (outside the very rare request of course)
     
  14. Aquila SPQR

    Aquila SPQR Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2009
    Messages:
    509
    Location:
    Central Europe
    Also this. I'm in renaissance now and no one wants to make DoF with me even when their stance is "friendly" towards me. Same with medieval era. I was able to do it in ancient and classical.

    EDIT: literally two turns after I wrote it Chinese asked me to sign DoF. One turn earlier they refused when I proposed it saying it's "ridiculous".
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
  15. General_Drax

    General_Drax Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2019
    Messages:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Bologna, Italy
    In the current iteration:

    _ you cannot get DoF if you ask AI, need to wait their offer. AI always dismiss human even if you need only to renew an already DoF in place.

    _ DoF make a comeback in Atomic and Information with Ideologies in place especially if you are the military leader: they are either guarded/afraid hysterically or just friendly.

    _ On bribed wars AIs do not compute military strenght nor distance. Only the (lowly) offer they get. In my current game, before i disabled bribed wars, Arabia bought a 15 turn from French. I was already deploying my military to invade French so actually made me a great service denying Napoleon the DefPact with Rome. Anyway me, as Aztecs, had 75 units and 1 tech level above French army. Their 50 units could not stand a chance (and they did not).
     
  16. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2015
    Messages:
    800
    I had it work once but yes, normally they will always turn the players down if asked.

    As to why they are super willing to make friends with other AI rather than the human, I am wondering if it has to do with how the AI logic works.
    It might have to do with the human always being player 1 with the AI being 2 and onward. If the AI is looking to make friends it might check each civ in order "above" it in numbers. So if it's number two, it checks three.. if they pass certain checks they "ask" the other civ. If they other civ agrees they are friends and the AI civ stops looking for another DoF. If this is the case the human player would always get checked and asked last.

    Though this brings an interesting question, the AI will pretty much always turns down the human if asked, but if the AI civ "asks" another AI civ, they will sometimes say yes. (else we would never see an AI with a DoF with another AI) This shows some sort of unbalance between the human and the AI when it comes to diplomatic logic.

    This is total speculation on my part, and if a contributor could clear this up it would be cool.
     
  17. Tekamthi

    Tekamthi Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2016
    Messages:
    467
    I also find the DoF function a little strange.... I think the disparity between human/AI, if it exists, might have been included to mitigate exploits connected to gifting/trading lump sums of gold (gpt available to all but gold itself requires DoF iirc). Symmetry is nice but not always optimal, review this aspect w/ caution
     
  18. frktest

    frktest Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2017
    Messages:
    42
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Calliano AT Italy
    Can that changes be applied with an already started game? Or that will crash savegames? I have now a game at turn 200 and I would test some DiploAi options
     
  19. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2015
    Messages:
    800
    I think that fun/enjoyment usually is more important than perfect balance and making a game 100% exploit proof.

    When it comes to exploits.. being a single player game there has to be some understanding that if someone wants to use cheap exploits it's on them.

    The AI seemly working with different diplomatic logic with humans when it comes to DoF effects enjoyment for me because regardless of how I play after second era the AI will mostly just stop making DoF but will have multiple with other AI.
     
  20. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2015
    Messages:
    800
    You can change it mid game and the effects work.
     

Share This Page