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Bridge between causal players and HOF-players?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by krikav, Oct 31, 2018.

  1. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Aug 25, 2011
    I did a comeback to civ4 recently, and have been trying to get some activity going around the "Nobles Club" cycle. These NC games, and also LHC and IU games are what I spent most of my time with last period I played civ4.
    I have also recently started to participate in BOTM.

    I'm not sure, but right now it seems abit to me, like there is a rift between A) causal players who just play every now and then, and perhaps only recently discovered the forum and are not that active and B) more dedicated players who participate in HOF/GOTM.
    Ofcourse there is some overlap, but in general when I look at the names of people in the NC-threads compared to the BOTM threads, it's different people almost to the extent that it's two separate communities.

    I don't think this is optimal if we want to have continued activity for the long term.
    I would like to have more connections between the aspiring newcommers and the experienced veterans.

    I'm sure many have thought about this, and probably discussed it alot, and I'm probably skewed by my own preferences... But could it be an idea to, in some way have say the NC-games, (or perhaps the BOTM games) First accessable for a brief period to HOF-play and after that made more open for causal players on the forum?
    What other suggestions and ideas have been floated over the years?
  2. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

    Jun 21, 2008
    No idea.
    Mostly just try to get everyone herded into SGOTM when it is active because that is where the most learning occurs.

    The game is 12 or 13 years old now. :crazyeye:
  3. Anysense

    Anysense Chieftain

    Jan 30, 2015
    That's, probably, just lack of time. Most people around here are either working or, which is worse, studiyng. I have to choose carefully what games I will play, because I won't be able to play them all.
  4. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Aug 12, 2006
    I do think that you have the right intention with your thought process, so I'd like to share my thinking on the subject and how I would suggest that you proceed, if you are willing to put in the time to share information about a HOF game that you play.

    Different areas of the forums have different interests at heart, but there are several players who frequent multiple areas.

    Nobles' Club, Immortal University, Lonely Hearts Club, Immortal Cookbook, or hosting your own game in the Strategy & Tips area are great ways of sharing a game in a way to get others contributing and to get active feedback on how you are playing.

    XOTM (where X = G, W, and B for Game [aka Vanilla], Warlords, and Beyond the Sword) partially caters to the sharing aspect, where players are encouraged to share things in the first spoiler thread that may help other players, and to share post-game thoughts in the final spoiler threat for the sake of comparing games with others. But, it's also intended to be a solo-play format where others are not supposed to see your saved games until after the game is over. XOTM is a great way to compete with others by playing the exact same settings. However, XOTM bans sharing of info on active games outside of the corresponding spoiler threads, so it's not the format for sharing details about an in-progress game with an open audience.

    HOF has a different take, where players are actively encouraged to share information about a game that they are playing but in a way where no other player will be able to play the exact same game. So, you can actually share a lot more info than you can in an XOTM game, since no one else will be allowed to use the same saved game. I believe that it is highly discouraged, if not banned, to share saved games of an active HOF game, which is why players often write their write-ups in an After-Action Report format, writing about the game after it was played, or at least posting one's notes after the game is over.

    Since HOF is about only one player playing a given saved game, the concept of multiple players playing the same game (à la Nobles' Club style) does not fit with the HOF format, so even GOTM games cannot be submitted to the HOF.

    That said, one great way to bridge the gap between HOF and the Strategy & Tips area is to host your own thread about a HOF game that you are playing where you DO NOT share the saved games from the game (or games, if you have multiple attempts) that you actually plan to submit to the HOF. Share pictures, your strategy, your plans, your tactics, and your struggles. Ask for feedback, ask for tips, and ask for encouragement.

    Since the intent is to encourage participation in the HOF, opening a thread in the Strategy & Tips area is a great way to bring the HOF to the attention of additional players there, while also leveraging that forum's tendency of players to actively share feedback on posted games.

    My suggestion would be to also share a saved game that you HAVE NO INTENTION OF PLAYING in your thread but which contains the same settings as your game. Assuming that you use MapFinder, it should be trivial for you to take one of your discarded saved games and share it, but then make sure that you write clearly to people that you cannot share a saved game about your active game, but that you are sharing a similar saved game with the same settings, in case they want to use MapFinder to generate a game with similar settings and play along with you in their own version. In so doing, you can also cunningly encourage more players to install the BUFFY Mod, which will put them one step closer to being able to participate in HOF and XOTM games.

    As for XOTM games themselves, after the games are completed, a WorldBuilder saved file is made available on the Final Results page, at the text that reads "Download the World Builder File," which lets players even choose to play the game without being forced to use the BUFFY Mod or to play any past game that was played in a previous version of BUFFY (or that was played when using earlier HOF Mods for Vanilla and Warlords games). The final saved games of all XOTM participants are also made available for download, although you would need the corresponding BUFFY/HOF Mod (and the corresponding Civ 4 patch for really old games) to open them.

    Accepted HOF games have all of the submitted saved games available for download.

    So, actually, all of those games are already made available for casual players to see and play after the submissions are over. If you felt that there was a particularly good game from the past (an accepted HOF submission or an XOTM game after the game's results have been released) you could also choose to host a game based on that game's saved game. Since the saved games are made available to everyone, if your intent is to open up that particular game to a wider audience, the option for you to host such a game is there for the taking.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
    krikav and Swordnboard like this.
  5. Swordnboard

    Swordnboard Chieftain

    Jan 21, 2018
    That's a great point! Perhaps I'll run one of these on a recent HOF game of mine. Anysense has also been doing running commentaries on some of his over in S&T, but his games are really expertly played so playing through them makes sense as well and could be a learning experience for everyone. And of course historical gems like Jesusin's cultural victories could be dissected in this way as well (also might help resurrect the tradition of cultural victories--seems people care not so much about them at this point).

    I also think there can be a rift between the HOF and more casual play because there is a perceived difficulty/high bar for getting into the HOF, but that really isn't true. Just because you can't come close to some of WastinTime and Kaitzilla's masterpieces (few can, I suppose), doesn't mean you can't compete with them on Warlord/Religious or Monarch/Conquest. On these lower difficulty levels and/or niche victories, there really is a lot of research to be done and improvements to be made, and good ideas can come from anyone. If you tend to play on prince, your understanding of how the AI develop on that difficulty is probably quite good, making you well-equipped to make critical breakthroughs on prince HOF games. Perhaps we should run special, very accessible "intro to the HOF" gauntlets from time to time so more folks feel empowered to make the jump?

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