Bringing allies into a war...

[Chrono285]

I used to love to bring other civs into my wars of conquest. They weakened the target, and gave him another front to worry about. But now vassalage makes it very risky. Either your enemy capitulates to your ally, depriving you of their tasty cities, or your ally capitulates to your enemy, instantly declaring war on you and bringing a two-army turnaround against you.

Do you guys only fight wars one-on-one, or do you have some other strategy to avoid this?

 

[Bast]

I completely agree. I don't think I like Vassal states at all. At least they should be fixed so that friends cannot go to war.

 

[Kartik]

Never happened to me, it comes up saying "vassal has made peace with *name* after theyve been vassalized by your friend.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^I think he's agreeing with you Kartik. He's saying that if the enemy capitulates to your friend, peace is declared denying you (the once attacker) the ability to take your enemy's cities (unless you declare war on your friend).

I completely agree. I don't think I like Vassal states at all. At least they should be fixed so that friends cannot go to war.

I couldn't disagree more about Vassal states. I love the backstabbing and challenge it creates. If you bring a weaker ally civ into a war just so you can open up a front for you, then expect the weaker ally civ to get busted up and capitulate. I would do the same thing and have. I was at war with the Romans (julius) and Brennan (one time friend with Julius) thought it would be great to declare war on me and try to come up on my southern border (julius was to the north). To bad for him Julius asked for capitulation 3 turns later after I took Rome. After about 20 turns, julius and I had messed Brennan up and he, too capitulated to me. Capitulation is invaluable (as long as they have more than 2 cities left) for domination wins.

 

[Bast]

^^I think he's agreeing with you Kartik. He's saying that if the enemy capitulates to your friend, peace is declared denying you (the once attacker) the ability to take your enemy's cities (unless you declare war on your friend).

I couldn't disagree more about Vassal states. I love the backstabbing and challenge it creates. If you bring a weaker ally civ into a war just so you can open up a front for you, then expect the weaker ally civ to get busted up and capitulate. I would do the same thing and have. I was at war with the Romans (julius) and Brennan (one time friend with Julius) thought it would be great to declare war on me and try to come up on my southern border (julius was to the north). To bad for him Julius asked for capitulation 3 turns later after I took Rome. After about 20 turns, julius and I had messed Brennan up and he, too capitulated to me. Capitulation is invaluable (as long as they have more than 2 cities left) for domination wins.

Well I'm playing as Catherine right now and I had a defensive pact with Hannibal. We were "friendly". We were also in a close race #1 and #2 in points and in military. Mehmed asked me for capitulation since he was been attacked by Brennus and losing and so I took it. This made my relationship with Hannibal drop! All that investment in the relationship was gone.

I wanted to get Hannibal to declare war against Brennus but he wouldn't. Or Capac who was very far to me but was making wonders I had wanted.

I could easily persuade friends in vanilla Civ IV but not anymore. The other thing was I was beating up Isabella before when she capitulated to Hannibal, I got Barcelona but it was too close to Madrid and the culture from Madrid was too strong. Of course, I couldn't declare war on her again since I didn't want to ruin my relationship with Hannibal - this is my biggest frustration.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I see your frustration, and I too have felt it. But I really think paying close attention to the relationships the AI's have with each other is the true art of diplomacy in Warlords. Don't take a vassal (even if it is peaceful) if this will damage your relations with friends to the point of not assisting you in war. However, to agree fully on one point, I hate that even if 2 civs are FRIENDLY with each other and one capitulates or vassalizes to you, there is still a negative modifier for the other. It makes no sense.

 

[Bast]

I see your frustration, and I too have felt it. But I really think paying close attention to the relationships the AI's have with each other is the true art of diplomacy in Warlords. Don't take a vassal (even if it is peaceful) if this will damage your relations with friends to the point of not assisting you in war. However, to agree fully on one point, I hate that even if 2 civs are FRIENDLY with each other and one capitulates or vassalizes to you, there is still a negative modifier for the other. It makes no sense.

Yep. This was particularly MORE frustrating because later on Ragnar and his vassal Louis declared war on me. This is something he NEVER would've done, I think, if my defensive pact with Hannibal still stood for he would've been declaring war on not only the two biggest armies but also Isabella and Victoria.

Now I'm fighting two wars on two fronts without Hannibal's support.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I definitely hear you brotha. The one time FRIENDLY ally turned war-mongerer-due-to-a-vassal must end in the patch. Other than that, they need to fix the trading issues with vassals. You should be able to demand anything from religion to techs to gold with the threat of war. Other than these 2 points, I love vassal states and feel they add a fun and puzzling dynamic to the game.

 

[lbhhh]

I definitely hear you brotha. The one time FRIENDLY ally turned war-mongerer-due-to-a-vassal must end in the patch. Other than that, they need to fix the trading issues with vassals. You should be able to demand anything from religion to techs to gold with the threat of war. Other than these 2 points, I love vassal states and feel they add a fun and puzzling dynamic to the game.

You can make demands to your vassals for all those things and if they refuse, it means war, even if in the diplomacy screen they are referred to as "gifts"...
Ask away, they will pay up.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

You can't threaten war with techs or gold or religion. The religion is redded out "We just don't like you enough". The gold you can't demand with threat of war, nor techs ("We just don't like you enough" or "We are not ready to start trading this tech away just yet..." => redded out). Resources are the only thing that if you are denied, war is declared. Even if they deny you the gold you demand, you can't declare war b/c they are your vassal!!!

 

[lbhhh]

You can't threaten war with techs or gold or religion. The religion is redded out "We just don't like you enough". The gold you can't demand with threat of war, nor techs ("We just don't like you enough" or "We are not ready to start trading this tech away just yet..." => redded out). Resources are the only thing that if you are denied, war is declared. Even if they deny you the gold you demand, you can't declare war b/c they are your vassal!!!

From the way you are describing the situation it seems to me they are no longer your vassal. I have my vassals switch to my religion all the time. Make sure they really are your vassal and if theyr'e not, go pound them into submission.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Nah, They're definitely my capitulate (which is where our communication disconnect may be occuring). I'm not positive about the gold thing. But the tech/religion i'm positive of. Peaceful vassals will almost always convert to your religion, but a capitulate may laugh in your face! Especially with tech. Techs are always redded out with capitulates for me. These are things you should be able to threaten war with (just like with resources).

 

[lbhhh]

Nah, They're definitely my capitulate (which is where our communication disconnect may be occuring). I'm not positive about the gold thing. But the tech/religion i'm positive of. Peaceful vassals will almost always convert to your religion, but a capitulate may laugh in your face! Especially with tech. Techs are always redded out with capitulates for me. These are things you should be able to threaten war with (just like with resources).

What you're describing has never happened to me, so I will assume its because I haven't played enough Warlords yet. Once civs capitulate to me I've been nice to them so maybe they were just agreeing with my demands because they liked me. every single demand I made except 1 was made without the threat of war so I'm guessing that explains it. Next game I'll try keeping one of my capitulates pissed off and see what I able to extort from him.

 

[The Lardossen]

To me states that I've pounded into vassalage are not worthy of anything useful except for a weak ally in war. And some domination points. So I still kill them, only to be annoyed by them capitulating to some AI.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

I definitely hear you brotha. The one time FRIENDLY ally turned war-mongerer-due-to-a-vassal must end in the patch. Other than that, they need to fix the trading issues with vassals. You should be able to demand anything from religion to techs to gold with the threat of war. Other than these 2 points, I love vassal states and feel they add a fun and puzzling dynamic to the game.

hear hear!


that happened to me in my current game. i was in a defensive pact and friendly with hatty when catherine declared war. as hatty and cath where on a different continent i had a hard time helping hatty as much as i could and she capitulated to catherine, declaring war on me in the process!! most annoying!

 

[neferator]

One thing I don't get is if you're in Permanent Alliance with an AI, and you take a vassal, you get a negative hit from your ally - even though they're their vassal too! Not that it makes any difference to the game at all, as permanent allies are always Friendly, I just find it weird.