Broad brush early game strategy talk

[Adreno]

Hi guys, I've been a fan of this game since Civ2 (I believe I did play Civ1 as a kid but not sure). Because of the MP problems I've only recently got into multiplayer and I'd like to discuss strategy mainly for CTON/FFA type games. Obviously you have to play very agressive in duels, but in a FFA other players benefit when 2 civs cripple each other with war. So I believe there's more room for different strategies in a 4 -or 6-player game.

I'd like to know what type of early game strategies the really good players use and more importantly why they work.

In my first games I tried to do a bit of everything; liberty settler, grow cities, IW fast, etc. without a particular focus on any aspect. When I was getting crushed I decided to focus on tech and military. I tried this build order in a couple of games:

Tech writing first, build monument -> scout/granary -> worker/warrior/scout/granary depending on the situation -> great library. I would take the worker from liberty tree before the free settler. Next tech whatever is needed for nearby lux, and then IW. After the GL is finished I pop philosophy and start building a national college. Optimally the national college would finish just before the liberty settler would plant the second city.

Next I would pop 1 more settler out of the capital, then build a barracks and military. In the other cities I would build granary/monument/colosseum, and later library/other long term buildings. I've also been forced to buld military in all cities when attacked.

I've been constantly microing my cities for gold & production (eg. choosing a 2p+1g tile over a 3f tile, but still choosing a 4f tile over a 3p tile, unless my happiness is under 2, which case I'm really avoiding food tiles). This slows down growth which allows me to get tech & military faster, 4th city if there is a good location for it, and generally makes it easier to play.

In 2 of the games where I used this, I was #1 in tech and military around longswords time. If someone is wondering, yes I was playing against good players. Problem was I got crushed in late game as the top population in demographics was like 10x mine, and I was last on manufacturing as well. The big civs eventually caught up in tech and surpassed me (before nuke time).

I also recognize I was lucky I wasn't rushed early, but it makes sense for me to play a high-risk strategy early on. I'm not as good as the other players, so a strategy like this allows me either a strong start or a quick death, while a more agressive strategy would set me up as a weak civ in a long game.

Now I'd like to try something else, what do you guys suggest?

 

[donhenriko]

Hi guys, I've been a fan of this game since Civ2 (I believe I did play Civ1 as a kid but not sure). Because of the MP problems I've only recently got into multiplayer and I'd like to discuss strategy mainly for CTON/FFA type games. Obviously you have to play very agressive in duels, but in a FFA other players benefit when 2 civs cripple each other with war. So I believe there's more room for different strategies in a 4 -or 6-player game.

I'd like to know what type of early game strategies the really good players use and more importantly why they work.

In my first games I tried to do a bit of everything; liberty settler, grow cities, IW fast, etc. without a particular focus on any aspect. When I was getting crushed I decided to focus on tech and military. I tried this build order in a couple of games:

Tech writing first, build monument -> scout/granary -> worker/warrior/scout/granary depending on the situation -> great library. I would take the worker from liberty tree before the free settler. Next tech whatever is needed for nearby lux, and then IW. After the GL is finished I pop philosophy and start building a national college. Optimally the national college would finish just before the liberty settler would plant the second city.

Next I would pop 1 more settler out of the capital, then build a barracks and military. In the other cities I would build granary/monument/colosseum, and later library/other long term buildings. I've also been forced to buld military in all cities when attacked.

I've been constantly microing my cities for gold & production (eg. choosing a 2p+1g tile over a 3f tile, but still choosing a 4f tile over a 3p tile, unless my happiness is under 2, which case I'm really avoiding food tiles). This slows down growth which allows me to get tech & military faster, 4th city if there is a good location for it, and generally makes it easier to play.

In 2 of the games where I used this, I was #1 in tech and military around longswords time. If someone is wondering, yes I was playing against good players. Problem was I got crushed in late game as the top population in demographics was like 10x mine, and I was last on manufacturing as well. The big civs eventually caught up in tech and surpassed me (before nuke time).

I also recognize I was lucky I wasn't rushed early, but it makes sense for me to play a high-risk strategy early on. I'm not as good as the other players, so a strategy like this allows me either a strong start or a quick death, while a more agressive strategy would set me up as a weak civ in a long game.

Now I'd like to try something else, what do you guys suggest?

As soon as you get universities you should start to employ scientists in order to get as many Great Scientists as possible so that you can leapfrog technologies.

They are SO Overpowered it is crazy. You should also alwasy choose rationalism as social policy. those 2 free techs are a real game breaker.

I'm not sure if you have been doing this, but IMO it is the only way to keep up in tech when playing against good players.

GG

 

[Silverfuturist]

Hi guys, I've been a fan of this game since Civ2 (I believe I did play Civ1 as a kid but not sure). Because of the MP problems I've only recently got into multiplayer and I'd like to discuss strategy mainly for CTON/FFA type games. Obviously you have to play very agressive in duels, but in a FFA other players benefit when 2 civs cripple each other with war. So I believe there's more room for different strategies in a 4 -or 6-player game.

I'd like to know what type of early game strategies the really good players use and more importantly why they work.

In my first games I tried to do a bit of everything; liberty settler, grow cities, IW fast, etc. without a particular focus on any aspect. When I was getting crushed I decided to focus on tech and military. I tried this build order in a couple of games:

Tech writing first, build monument -> scout/granary -> worker/warrior/scout/granary depending on the situation -> great library. I would take the worker from liberty tree before the free settler. Next tech whatever is needed for nearby lux, and then IW. After the GL is finished I pop philosophy and start building a national college. Optimally the national college would finish just before the liberty settler would plant the second city.

Next I would pop 1 more settler out of the capital, then build a barracks and military. In the other cities I would build granary/monument/colosseum, and later library/other long term buildings. I've also been forced to buld military in all cities when attacked.

I've been constantly microing my cities for gold & production (eg. choosing a 2p+1g tile over a 3f tile, but still choosing a 4f tile over a 3p tile, unless my happiness is under 2, which case I'm really avoiding food tiles). This slows down growth which allows me to get tech & military faster, 4th city if there is a good location for it, and generally makes it easier to play.

In 2 of the games where I used this, I was #1 in tech and military around longswords time. If someone is wondering, yes I was playing against good players. Problem was I got crushed in late game as the top population in demographics was like 10x mine, and I was last on manufacturing as well. The big civs eventually caught up in tech and surpassed me (before nuke time).

I also recognize I was lucky I wasn't rushed early, but it makes sense for me to play a high-risk strategy early on. I'm not as good as the other players, so a strategy like this allows me either a strong start or a quick death, while a more agressive strategy would set me up as a weak civ in a long game.

Now I'd like to try something else, what do you guys suggest?

This is how I crush most public games: have more cities than everybody else. There are exceptions, like island map games where I go OCC for a Frigate rush (several frigates and any melee unit will take every coastal city if they don't have frigates or something like cannons) or constricted maps where too many cities at first will cause the other players to unite and attack you (FFA games.)

1-2 cities usually lead vs me in tech until universities go up. The 1-2 city empire will have national college up faster and also more growth in the capital. If I can, I will have 1 city per lux (old faithful = 1 lux, fountain of youth = 3 lux.) Then once my universities go up, my science will start to crush theirs (work the specialist slots.) In addition, 1-2 cities can only work on 1-2 great scientists, while 4+ cities can work on 4+ great scientists.

Speaking of great scientists, look how much science higher era techs cost. An academy's yield can't come close to popping a higher era tech with a scientist, if the game lasts that long.

An even better return - puppets, which don't increase policy costs. I prepare my big war push for my civ's special ability: chivalry for Siam, machinery for England/China, etc. If I have weak neighbors (use the F9 key to check demographics every turn) I will just iron rush them first. If I don't have a special unit, I might go for a crossbow or knight rush.

And finally = "good" is relative in this game. Some would consider you a great player. Others would consider every person you have played "weak." Most public games that have "pro" in the title I easily dominate. You can find real "pros" at the League or NQ (no-quitters) and there are a few players that can dominate me. Its all in good fun

 

[Adreno]

And finally = "good" is relative in this game. Some would consider you a great player. Others would consider every person you have played "weak." Most public games that have "pro" in the title I easily dominate. You can find real "pros" at the League or NQ (no-quitters) and there are a few players that can dominate me. Its all in good fun

Thanks for the comments. I haven't played any public games (just NQ and league), and I've had my ass handed to me several times by players who are in the top10 of the league at the moment. They are so much better that it's really demoralizing to play these games.

 

[rem159]

You are not the only 1 that got his ass kicked all the time lol.
In the beginning of the game i usually know how to stay close.
But somewhere in the middle of the game i am prob doing something horrible wrong.
Yesterday my first game(mp that is) i ended up being in the middle on a great plain map.
Before long i was at war with the other 4, i managed to hold out till the point where i finally thought(just before rifleman)ah hell with it i am going on the offensive at egypt(bottom left of the map)
i managed to take 2 out of 3 cities but by then india attacked from bottom right.
Persia from upper left and hiawathafrom upper right.
Neadless to say i stood no chance anymore then.
But because i had to produce units all the time i fell greatly behind on science couldnt build any buildings.but still it was great fun.

Oh btw excuse my prob not so good english its not my native language.

 

[Tabarnak]

The best overall start you can give to yourself is a 4 cities opening with an iron working beeline(with AH before usually). Get the free settler first from Liberty. Then you work on luxuries techs then you work on libraries. NC should show up around turn 55-65. Don't build a granary in capital before turn 40 or it will slow down everything.

It's probably the strongest non-wonder start.

But there is some map that predetermine some special beelines.

If your capital is sitting around wheat and deer tiles, a monument-scout-granary start followed by the GL is powerful. Try to get the GL at turn 25 or less(not teamer game where it's faster, only CTON/FFA). Get free worker from Liberty first to work a mine then chop forests. Settle as many cities as you need before NC. Your capital should be at 5-6 after the GL. Focus on production and spam some warriors and archers before making more settlers. Get Iron Working with the GL then settle your 2nd city for it around turn 27. Later, since you will probably reach Philo first since you built the GL, work on Oracle in capital before NC(while other cities build libraries). The GL/Oracle combo is nice for fast GS production. You will finish Liberty faster, take your free GE for Hagia Sophia. This is the only beeline that allows you Dynamite before turn 120.

Also, there is the Maths beeline for Hanging Gardens. To get maximum benefits, you need a lot of hills and production tiles in your capital. With archery, you can defend yourslef a bit. Get 3-4 cities before Maths and build a watermill if possible before HG. Alternatively, if you have lot of hills around, you have good chances to catch a 6 iron tile if you don't play with balanced ressources.

Masonry beeline(When you have masonry in capital). Get masonry ASAP. Build monument-scout in capital then a worker. Take free settler first from Liberty to make a 2nd city that will build units while you make the Pyramids. The masonry tile allow your cities to grow decently and force Pyramids to be build faster. After that, rush 1-2 more cities from capital.

The general rule is to NOT build the NC before making 2-3 more cities. It's more beneficial for the long term investments you gonna receive. Even in singleplayer competitions we almost all agree that's the best way to overcome the immortal-deity AI. Same against humans.

 

[EEE_BOY]

Tabarnak you have so many strategies in your deposit, not to mention the 4 city sword rush against AI. Gladly added to my strategy deposit

 

[Tabarnak]

Tabarnak you have so many strategies in your deposit, not to mention the 4 city sword rush against AI. Gladly added to my strategy deposit

But i forgot yours!

If you start on a watered map and are clustered on a tiny land, try go 2 cities with the Honor tree. Beeline bronze working and work on the Colossus. Get more gold among the way and work on getting Navigation as fast as possible. Build promos buildings in your capital and build some triremes before Navigation. You can gain very high promoted ships and you can litterally be unbeatable if you can reach 3 ranged, double attack and move after attacking...god this is certainly the most earliest OP situation you can have against humans. You are litterally unbeatable.

Watch the FFA EPIC GAME under my sig to see all the mess that EEE_boy did to me

For a 4 cities sword rush strategy, watch the GOTM #31. The initial set-up is pretty similar than against humans excepted that you CAN'T sell them borders and luxs

 

[Thresian]

The initial set-up is pretty similar than against humans excepted that you can sell them borders and luxs

I assume you mean that you can sell borders and luxs to AIs, but not to humans... but why is that? It does seem that people tend not to sell borders or luxs in FFA games: somebody once sold me a lux for 30g, but other than that it's just been lux for lux trades. I can see that in an MP game, you don't want to give other players the informational advantage of being able to scout out your territory, but surely there must be *some* amount of gold which would be a fair compensation. And similarly, a surplus lux isn't going to be worth 240g to another human (unless he's unhappy), but the extra GA points must be worth *something*.

 

[Adreno]

Thanks for the builds. In the future I'll definitely think about my starting position more instead of deciding on strategy before the game.

It's interesting to hear NC is better built after cities, goes totally against my intuition. I usually end up with 3 cities in early game as possible locations for the 4th city either don't have a luxury or are indefensible positions. Let's say I have 2 lux near my capital, 1lux near 2nd city and 1lux near 3rd city. Does it generally make sense to build a 4th city in this situation if there are no resources near it? I would have have 4 lux / 4 cities, but it would be easier to handle 3 cities /w 4 lux.

Thresian: I've wondered about the same thing. I hold an economist world view and agree there should be SOME price for borders/lux. I think people just avoid those trades because it's really difficult to estimate that price. Even if someone offers you a deal that seems fair at first glance, you start to think maybe he knows something I don't. Surely he wouldn't be offering this price if it would benefit me more than him?

 

[Tabarnak]

I assume you mean that you can sell borders and luxs to AIs, but not to humans... but why is that? It does seem that people tend not to sell borders or luxs in FFA games: somebody once sold me a lux for 30g, but other than that it's just been lux for lux trades. I can see that in an MP game, you don't want to give other players the informational advantage of being able to scout out your territory, but surely there must be *some* amount of gold which would be a fair compensation. And similarly, a surplus lux isn't going to be worth 240g to another human (unless he's unhappy), but the extra GA points must be worth *something*.

Lol sorry. Typo error.

not ''can''.....can't

I edited my post.

I saw some curious deals through my games played but usually there is no deal unless you really want to ally with somebody against a much bigger threat(in FFA games) which make all the beauty of balanced FFA games. Like the games i play with Onan and pals.

Lux for lux trades are common.

@Adreno : 1 city per lux is easier to deal i agree. Watch horse tiles and stone tiles they are useful to gain some happiness. Coliseums are very strong in mp too get them early if you can. Notre-Dame is a must for big empires.

 

[Silverfuturist]

But i forgot yours!

If you start on a watered map and are clustered on a tiny land, try go 2 cities with the Honor tree. Beeline bronze working and work on the Colossus. Get more gold among the way and work on getting Navigation as fast as possible. Build promos buildings in your capital and build some triremes before Navigation. You can gain very high promoted ships and you can litterally be unbeatable if you can reach 3 ranged, double attack and move after attacking...god this is certainly the most earliest OP situation you can have against humans. You are litterally unbeatable.

Watch the FFA EPIC GAME under my sig to see all the mess that EEE_boy did to me

For a 4 cities sword rush strategy, watch the GOTM #31. The initial set-up is pretty similar than against humans excepted that you CAN'T sell them borders and luxs

Honor tree - good suggesion, I will try it on my next water map game. I have been going full tradition for growth and then commerce until the +3 hammers per coastal city. I am guessing Russia would be a great choice for this path because of double iron. While England is obviously strong, being able to build twice as many frigates is something, especially if you don't start off with lots of iron.

Does the +10% bonus for next to friendly unit also work for ships? I can see how the extra XP is so powerful. Without that policy a few of my ships were able to get +3 range, so deadly.

 

[EEE_BOY]

Honor tree - good suggesion, I will try it on my next water map game. I have been going full tradition for growth and then commerce until the +3 hammers per coastal city. I am guessing Russia would be a great choice for this path because of double iron. While England is obviously strong, being able to build twice as many frigates is something, especially if you don't start off with lots of iron.

Does the +10% bonus for next to friendly unit also work for ships? I can see how the extra XP is so powerful. Without that policy a few of my ships were able to get +3 range, so deadly.

Actually the colossus building is not essential unless there are large amount of sea resources.

A standard 4-city build to erect NC around the time start to research education. Use the great general to speed up building university. run scientists while tech to astronomy.

Basically wonder free. Barrack or monument are not be needed. Build as many triremes as possible and hide them. Conserve cash. Culture is just enough to finish Honor before bulbing Navigation near turn 120-130

 

[KM]

Thanks for the builds. In the future I'll definitely think about my starting position more instead of deciding on strategy before the game.

It's interesting to hear NC is better built after cities, goes totally against my intuition. I usually end up with 3 cities in early game as possible locations for the 4th city either don't have a luxury or are indefensible positions. Let's say I have 2 lux near my capital, 1lux near 2nd city and 1lux near 3rd city. Does it generally make sense to build a 4th city in this situation if there are no resources near it? I would have have 4 lux / 4 cities, but it would be easier to handle 3 cities /w 4 lux.

Thresian: I've wondered about the same thing. I hold an economist world view and agree there should be SOME price for borders/lux. I think people just avoid those trades because it's really difficult to estimate that price. Even if someone offers you a deal that seems fair at first glance, you start to think maybe he knows something I don't. Surely he wouldn't be offering this price if it would benefit me more than him?

There is a very simple explenation why humans only trade lux for lux and not lux for gold. A human might allways backstab you when it is benifitial to him or her. Take this situation. I trade you 4 lux for 500 g. those I use to upgrade my archers to crossbows then I delare war and use those crossbows to kill you. This is what human do to AI, lux trade abuse. (You might actually also do the old, pillage and rebuild on the lux, u get the gold the other one gets nothing.

...People are not as stupid as AI so they dont like to get abused, therefore they only trdae lux for lux so that it will hurt equally to cancel the deal. Would make sence thought to get lux for gold/turn, but never for money upfront.

In tamer on the other hand trading lux would make sence in the way that u dont risk getting abused. But in teamer you trade lux for nothing if you have duble, u give gold for nothing if the other one needs to upgrade. Basicly you tarde what s needed to trade for the greater benefit of the players in your team.

 

[Thresian]

There is a very simple explenation why humans only trade lux for lux and not lux for gold. A human might allways backstab you when it is benifitial to him or her. Take this situation. I trade you 4 lux for 500 g. those I use to upgrade my archers to crossbows then I delare war and use those crossbows to kill you. This is what human do to AI, lux trade abuse. (You might actually also do the old, pillage and rebuild on the lux, u get the gold the other one gets nothing.

There's two things though. Firstly, as you say, it would still be ok to trade lux for gpt, but people don't. Secondly, even though humans might renege on the deal, people are quite often trustworthy. So, for instance, when I bought lux for 30g (which seller needed to upgrade a unit), he'd just told me that he wasn't going to attack me any time soon. Well, he might have been lying, but as it turns out, he wasn't, so I got 30 turns of +4 happy for 30g, which seems a pretty sweet deal. It's a calculated risk: the potential upside outweighs the potential downside.

In general, I've found that people usually do do as they say. It seems irrational at first, but if you play a lot in the same community (I play at NQ), then you play a lot of the same people. So if somebody screws you over in one game, then you'll remember not to trust them in future, and maybe you'll try to pay them back when you have the chance. So in the long term, it probably works out best to be trustworthy.

 

[KM]

y, I played quite a lot of NQ games mabye a year ago, and a few more recently. I mostly play at civplayers nowadays (ffa no diplo allowed, duel or teamer)

In NQ I agree with you that your rep counts in later games since its a closed group. Also stuff like backstabbing, wormongering etc will follow you to later games.

One reason why NQ players dont do much gold for lux trades is that most players use all the gold, or have a plan to use the gold for upgrades later if they have been saving. +4 happines is to little gain to part with to pay 500g and the money someone is prepared o part with for +4 happines is so low that they other player most of the cases wont think it s worth it. I mean if u got double lux agaist Ai it costs u nothing to trade it. AI ot some cheat bonus happines anyway so + 4 happines for the AI means nothing and free gold for u. Giving an oponent +4 happines thought means he can grow +4 in pop and become stronger and u dont want your competitors to become stronger unless u get something that will give u at least as much advantage. I guess what I am trying to say is that in order to make a deal where the benefit of the other is negative for yourself you will have to think that you will gain at least as much if not more then your opponent (and since the opponent will be thinking the same way that goes for him aswell)

And that is just something that happens rarely except for lux for lux since both know they ll get exactly the same benefit.

 

[MasterMishi]

re op
prioritse the library in your cities
at least 4 cities on almost every land map
circus for happiness
it will be hard to win without any of the powerful wonders
keep military to a safe minimum and ivest in sci and hammer buildings instead
those early build decisions do snowball
learn mid late game a bit more
(what do the top players prioritise in the eras when many buildings and units are available? unis workshops!) hammers and sci
look at what the better player did - no. of city, hammers per turn, wonders, pop, civ, units, land, city on hill?

 

[Silverfuturist]

Culture is just enough to finish Honor before bulbing Navigation near turn 120-130

I am finishing Navigation 30 turns before what you are saying (time = quick.) Turn 120-130 on quick is way, way, way too late for the plan.

 

[EEE_BOY]

I am finishing Navigation 30 turns before what you are saying (time = quick.) Turn 120-130 on quick is way, way, way too late for the plan.

Maybe we are referring to different game speed here? I only played standard so far. I guess going liberty may help speed up the initial expansion a bit. Also there is no GL wonder constructed. Would you elaborate more on your stratergy please?

 

[Tabarnak]

You can get Navigation before turn 85 quick speed with the PT. For standard speed it's usually around turn 120-130. With AIs around, you can get them below 110. You got them pretty early EEE(i got them around the same time, maybe a bit earlier, and i hard beelined them with he PT in our last FFA EPIC GAME).