Brucia La Terra. Let's make a Civ for Italy. An offer nobody can refuse

[jsciv69]

The time has come for an Italian Civ. and all the great Italian culture that goes with it. Italy was a land of City-states. Then came unification in the mid-19th Century. This Civilization franchise has featured Civs for the English, Spanish, French, German, and Greek. So let's complete the set with Italian. And let's sip some wine, or some Strega. Listen to some Caruso. How would you construct Italy for Civ VII

LEADER. King Victor Emmanuel II would be an understandable choice. But I might prefer Francesco Crispi.
Crispi was Prime Minister 1887-1891& 1893-1896. Crispi was known as a Strongman. yet with a progressive trait. Relaxing anti-strike laws, enacting public health laws and legislation to protect emigrants abroad. Foreign Policy-wise Crispi was an expansionist who favored imperialism. Crispi Allied with Otto Von Bismarck of Germany in what became the Triple Alliance.

Special Buildings: Teatro Massimo(famous Opera House), University of Urbino, Barone Ricasoli(famous winery), La Pasta di Gragnano(famous pasta factory)

Special Units: Cacciatori(Infantry Unit)

 

[Zaarin]

Italy's an idea that gets floated a lot, but given the choice I'd rather have Bohemia or Austria. That being said, if we get Italy it should definitely be based on Late Medieval/Early Modern Italy. Modern Italy's chief accomplishments have been losing a tank-versus-spear war in Africa and being a major factor in the Axis' loss of WW2. We've had a Venice-based Italy once; I think Florence or Genoa should go next. A Papal States civ might be interesting--but would probably be too controversial to be worth the trouble. Plus the Church's temporal authority has been considerably overstated.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Italy is definitely my most requested civ.

I'd personally want it more Renaissance focused in it's design, however I'm open to more modern elements such as Victor Emmanuel II leading considering having a leader of a particular city-state might not feel like a unified Italy to some people. He could have something about absorbing city-states into his empire.

I'd like for the UB to be a workshop replacement which yields culture, as well as production, and also grants GWAM and Great Scientists in addition to Great Engineers. I'd love for an Opera House to be a universal building but if not it should be a unique building for them instead.

I don't necessarily care what time period the UU would be from. The Condotierri would be interesting though or even Genoese Crossbowmen for medieval units.

For the civ ability I'd like for it to be "The Birthplace of the Renaissance" and deal with culture and tourism. This could also unlock the Opera House building earlier than other civs if it becomes a universal building.

Italy's an idea that gets floated a lot, but given the choice I'd rather have Bohemia or Austria.

Why not all three?
Well I don't mind sacrificing Bohemia for Italy.

 

[jsciv69]

Italy's an idea that gets floated a lot, but given the choice I'd rather have Bohemia or Austria. That being said, if we get Italy it should definitely be based on Late Medieval/Early Modern Italy. Modern Italy's chief accomplishments have been losing a tank-versus-spear war in Africa and being a major factor in the Axis' loss of WW2. We've had a Venice-based Italy once; I think Florence or Genoa should go next. A Papal States civ might be interesting--but would probably be too controversial to be worth the trouble. Plus the Church's temporal authority has been considerably overstated.[/Q

Perhaps The Vatican could be used as either a Wonder, or as a replacement as a religious/holy district for Italy. And bring major bonuses towards tourism and culture

 

[Zaarin]

Why not all three?

Because I don't need that much Central Europe and Italy and Austria in particular fill the same niche as a Central European culture civ. TBH, Bohemia is also a strong contender for having a culture focus, albeit probably with a heftier side of religion and war than the other two.

Well I don't mind sacrificing Bohemia for Italy.

Hussites. War wagons.

Perhaps The Vatican could be used as either a Wonder, or as a replacement as a religious/holy district for Italy. And bring major bonuses towards tourism and culture

Despite its quirks, I think Vatican City works best as a city-state, as it has been for the past two games, though this can certainly create...quixotic results. Attaching it to Italy doesn't make sense to me as it generally was either aloof or hostile to the various goings-on in Italy, including the 19th century reunification movement. Despite being the home of Rome and the Italian Inquisition and being one of the most Catholic countries in modern Europe alongside Poland and Ireland, religiosity is honestly something I don't strongly associate with an Italian civ compared to culture, trade, and maritime supremacy.

 

[Haig]

Italy

Leader: Giuseppe Garibaldi (never actually led the state but an iconic character)

Ability: Risorgimento
Settlers cost more to build, but Italy can use culture and influence to absorb neighboring cities and city-states.

UU: Pavise crossbowman (takes less damage from ranged attacks)

UU2: Bersaglieri (rifleman with extra movement)

UB: Galleria (culture, slots for artwork)

We dont know yet the mechanics for Civ VII civs but these are fun to design anyway..

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Because I don't need that much Central Europe and Italy and Austria in particular fill the same niche as a Central European culture civ. TBH, Bohemia is also a strong contender for having a culture focus, albeit probably with a heftier side of religion and war than the other two.

Seems like Bohemia could be a better replacement for Poland then.

Besides technically Italy is Southern Europe, well at least most of it, depending on who you ask.

 

[jsciv69]

Italy

Leader: Giuseppe Garibaldi (never actually led the state but an iconic character)

Ability: Risorgimento
Settlers cost more to build, but Italy can use culture and influence to absorb neighboring cities and city-states.

UU: Pavise crossbowman (takes less damage from ranged attacks)

UU2: Bersaglieri (rifleman with extra movement)

UB: Galleria (culture, slots for artwork)

We dont know yet the mechanics for Civ VII civs but these are fun to design anyway..

I would like to find some use for the Lupara(the notorious shotgun used by local mafias aka Cosa Nostra)

 

[Zaarin]

Giuseppe Garibaldi

Can we get Michael Garibaldi instead?

Seems like Bohemia could be a better replacement for Poland then.

Probably, though I think that's regrettable. I may be in the minority, but I think Poland's earned its place as a recurring civ.

Besides technically Italy is Southern Europe, well at least most of it, depending on who you ask.

Yes, it is, but politically it's historically closely tied with Germany/the Holy Roman Empire, which is why I put it in the same category as Austria and Bohemia. If I can only have one of Italy, Austria, and Bohemia, I want Bohemia (much as I love Maria Teresa).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Probably, though I think that's regrettable. I may be in the minority, but I think Poland's earned its place as a recurring civ.

I agree that I think it will be a recurring civ along with Sweden and Brazil who have also appeared twice.

I'm also inclined to believe that Australia and/or Canada might also keep on appearing.

Ethiopia, after it's third straight appearance seems to be inevitable at appearing in every future game. Time to give them their archrivals, Italy, in Civ VII.

Yes, it is, but politically it's historically closely tied with Germany/the Holy Roman Empire, which is why I put it in the same category as Austria and Bohemia. If I can only have one of Italy, Austria, and Bohemia, I want Bohemia (much as I love Maria Teresa).

To be fair Maria Theresa was also queen of Bohemia.
I'd still take Italy as much as I'd want Maria Theresa back too.

 

[Zaarin]

I'm also inclined to believe that Australia and/or Canada might also keep on appearing.

Pick only one of them, and pick the one that's not Australia.

To be fair Maria Theresa was also queen of Bohemia.

In a "Victoria leads India" sense, yes. Bohemia needs either George of Poděbrady or a Přemyslid. Definitely no to a Habsburg, preferably no to a Luxembourg, and I'm kind of iffy on a Jagiellon. Since I want a Hussite Bohemia, though, I really think George of Poděbrady is the ideal candidate.

 

[9gkj548hkm20vk79dj689bnj4]

I think the main appeal of an Italy civ would be in unification but I don't know how to enact that.

Maybe in a style similar to Venice in Civ 5, you can only gain control of city states...but later, say in the "Industrial era", you can then essentially unite your city-states and choose what your unique ability will be depending on which city-state will be your national capital: either a religious, industrial, cultural, money/trade, scientific, or military bonus.

 

[mitsho]

Sure, a collection of city states could be a very interesting design for a civ. Maybe they are part of a group of civs with such a special "flair" (City State Confederation) that opens up special gameplay for them (and for Greece, the Maya, The Phoenicians, the Sumerians, the Swiss, Harrapans and others).

You can go in practically any directions with the Italians though, from post-unification boomtown to "Renaissance Hub" - just make it interesting.

 

[Kimiimaro]

I wouldn't mind seeing Italy receiving the same treatment Greece did this game - represented as a bond of united culturally similar small states representing the period during which Italy stood out in the world, rather than 19th Century Kingdom of Italy. The Risorgimento was an impressive achievement. The endeavours of post-unification Kingdom of Italy? Other than pioneering aerial warfare, not so much .

Civilisation ability: Birthplace of the Renaissance - When completing a research of a technology or civic unlocking a new unit or building, Italy instantly spawns one free sample of the freshly researched unit or building in the capital, provided the conditions don't contradict the spawning (district for placement of the unlocked building has to be constructed, naval units must have sea access and aerial units an airfield). If unit/building cannot be spawned in the capital, the most populous city that fulfils the conditions is chosen instead.
Unique unit: Genoese Crossbowman - There's a bunch of things one could do with these guys, I guess. Twice per turn attack, better defence, increased damage... Just pick one or two .
Unique structure: Palazzo - Unique improvement providing housing, culture and tourism. Palazzi can house a single work of art of any type. Limitation would probably be only one per city or only being buildable next to districts/city centres.

As much of a Venetophile I am, I chose a Florentine leader this time:

Leader: Cosimo de' Medici
Capital: Florence
Leader ability: Banco dei Medici - All Italian tile, building and unit purchases are 15% cheaper. Cosimo is also allowed to spend money on city projects, speeding up their completion.

preferably no to a Luxembourg

A bit of a shame, considering that the most celebrated King of Bohemia was a Luxembourg . But I can get behind both George of Poděbrady and Přemyslid kings - preferably Ottokar II or Wenceslaus II.

 

[Zaarin]

A bit of a shame, considering that the most celebrated King of Bohemia was a Luxembourg .

Karel I, I'm guessing? He'd feel a little awkward alongside an HRE Germany given that he was also Charles IV, Holy Roman Emperor.

 

[Kimiimaro]

Karel I, I'm guessing? He'd feel a little awkward alongside an HRE Germany given that he was also Charles IV, Holy Roman Emperor.

Charles IV, indeed. Well, while technically speaking, he did rule Bohemia as Charles I, he is only known here as Charles IV, Charles I is reserved by the man who ruled over Bohemia as Charles III - the man was Charles I of Austria-Hungary .

If you ask, no, not even Charles II of Bohemia would be known by that number - that ruler would be known as Charles VI, once again taking the number from the title of Holy Roman Emperor .

On the other part of the issue - if we give Germany a certain Otto von Bismarck of the post-HRE German Empire, that would resolve the issue quite well, I'd say. And it would sate my thirst for industrial era leaders as well

 

[Zaarin]

Charles IV, indeed. Well, while technically speaking, he did rule Bohemia as Charles I, he is only known here as Charles IV, Charles I is reserved by the man who ruled over Bohemia as Charles III - the man was Charles I of Austria-Hungary .

If you ask, no, not even Charles II of Bohemia would be known by that number - that ruler would be known as Charles VI, once again taking the number from the title of Holy Roman Emperor .

...My head is spinning.

On the other part of the issue - if we give Germany a certain Otto von Bismarck of the post-HRE German Empire, that would resolve the issue quite well, I'd say. And it would sate my thirst for industrial era leaders as well

I want Rudolf II. I'm not adamant against the return of the Iron Chancellor; I just think Germany's earlier history is more interesting. Rudolf II would be an opportunity to portray Germany a little differently as a science and culture civ instead of the usual "warfare and industry and no sense of humor" civ.

 

[Kimiimaro]

...My head is spinning.

We've also had two rulers we call Ferdinand I - those being true Ferdinand I, both on the Bohemian throne and on the Imperial throne, and Ferdinand V, who is also known as Ferdinand I, for he ruled as such over the Austrian Empire - the Habsburg ruler numerals reset when Francis II under Napoleon's pressure dissolved the HRE and proclaimed the Austrian Empire, making himself Francis I. To make things better, there is not really a universal consensus on calling the latter Ferdinand one numeral here, so you can find different people calling him both Ferdinand I and Ferdinand V. Luckily, we at least have suffixes for them here to differentiate the two - the former Ferdinand I gets called "Habsburský" ("Habsburg"), the latter Ferdinand I gets called "Dobrotivý" ("the Benevolent") .

While I'm at Ferdinands, Ferdinand II and after him, Ferdinand III ruled both Bohemia and the Empire over the course of the Thirty Years' War. It got a tad complicated with Ferdinand IV though - Ferdinand III had him preemptively elected the King of the Romans and crowned King of Bohemia while still keeping his titles and reign, but sudden smallpox ensured that Ferdinand IV died before his father, meaning he never actually ruled, and as such, he's mostly forgotten in the history books and we learn about Ferdinand III, and some 200 years later, we go straight to Ferdinand V. Or Ferdinand I. You can choose which numeral you like better .

I want Rudolf II. I'm not adamant against the return of the Iron Chancellor; I just think Germany's earlier history is more interesting. Rudolf II would be an opportunity to portray Germany a little differently as a science and culture civ instead of the usual "warfare and industry and no sense of humor" civ.

I'm all for Rudolf II, but I'd be a bit reserved making him the leader of Germany - for all the great patronage of sciences and arts, he was simply not a strong and competent Emperor and he barely had any authority. By the end of his reign, the Protestant and Catholic leagues formed, further tearing the already divided Empire apart. You'd have a safer time making him the leader of Austria, and he is probably the one Habsburg where you could make a case for making him a leader of Bohemia solely - not only did he move his capital to Prague, but in the last years of his reign, he was forced by his brother Matthias' rebellion to give him rule over Austria and Hungary, leaving him only with Bohemian and Imperial crowns .

 

[Krajzen]

Generally I support Italy getting the Greek/Phoenician/Gaul treatment. A capital being probably either Florence or Milan (it feels slightly off but on the other hand sharing capital with Roman Empire would be a problem anyway) with the appropriate great city state ruler, and rest of the cities from all over Italy united under him. I wouldn't like Venice or Genoa leading, because Venice already appeared in the series and I'd prefer Italy being something more than merchant city states this time.

Although this kind of aligns of "what is expected" from Italy. Fresher ideas would be
- giving Italians scientific bonuses as well, given their enormous contributions on this field over the entire millenium
- or industrial bonuses (and then we give cultural stuff to Germany and voila, we have subverted silly stereotypes in their entirety )
- or making them a modern actually united Italy under Garibaldi or some capable ruler, with strong economy, which would again subvert certain negative stereotypes

 

[Zaarin]

I'm all for Rudolf II, but I'd be a bit reserved making him the leader of Germany - for all the great patronage of sciences and arts, he was simply not a strong and competent Emperor and he barely had any authority. By the end of his reign, the Protestant and Catholic leagues formed, further tearing the already divided Empire apart.

Yes, that's true--though honestly it would have taken a bloodbath to resolve the Protestant/Catholic problem (oh, wait, it did take a bloodbath to resolve the Protestant/Catholic problem) so you can't entirely blame Rudolf II for that one. I agree he was a weak emperor, but he was a fascinating one. If Civ7 continues Civ6's quest for "big personalities," I think he's a good candidate.

You'd have a safer time making him the leader of Austria

No one leads Austria except Maria Theresa.

- or industrial bonuses (and then we give cultural stuff to Germany and voila, we have subverted silly stereotypes in their entirety )

- or making them a modern actually united Italy under Garibaldi

Only if it's Michael Garibaldi. That may be problematic considering Jerry Doyle is dead.