Yep, that's right
BTS 3.13: Infinite City Sprawl 01 - Manhattan Empire
- Thread starter Zherak_Khan
- Start date
Yep, that's right
Shyuhe asked earlier if we can skip a ring. Betruger answered that it is 'no'. Then shyuhe meant a capturec city - when it fits but a ring is skipped. Are we allowed to keep it then? Maybe we have to resettle it ASAP, when the enemies culture has disappeared. This makes warfare risky (very costly).
Zherak_Khan
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2006
- Messages
- 166
Quick clarification:
We may never control a city unless we control another city removed exactly three tiles* vertically or horizontally from it (not diagonally or any combination of diagonal/horizontal moves). The exception is of course when we have only one city.
*Three tiles means that pre-engineering, 1-move units are unable to move from within one city to within another (it is illegal to found cities this close anyway). Post-engineering, 1-move units are exactly able to start their turn within one city and end it within another.
If we capture a city without owning a connecting city, we must raze it. If the city is not in our grid (8/9 chance), we will never be able to connect it anyway.
As such, we may not 'skip' any city ring - however, we can settle a long line of cities, i.e. 5 horizontally aligned cities (this is what I refer to as snaking or chaining).
There is one soft exception to the chaining rule: If we somehow get a part of our chain capture by the enemy or even razed, we will not somehow disband the disconnected cities. We must, however, do everything we can to reestablish a connection, be recapturing (no peace and armybuilding) or refounding (ASAP short of 0-turn whipping).
PS: One of the reasons I'm thinking about the 1-city Oracle is that it is the only way to get Budd and Confu into the same city. If we lose out on Buddhism or our capitol has no good reason to grow, etc, though, we will adjust.
Mid-game slaving/drafting is going to be insanely strong.
We may never control a city unless we control another city removed exactly three tiles* vertically or horizontally from it (not diagonally or any combination of diagonal/horizontal moves). The exception is of course when we have only one city.
*Three tiles means that pre-engineering, 1-move units are unable to move from within one city to within another (it is illegal to found cities this close anyway). Post-engineering, 1-move units are exactly able to start their turn within one city and end it within another.
If we capture a city without owning a connecting city, we must raze it. If the city is not in our grid (8/9 chance), we will never be able to connect it anyway.
As such, we may not 'skip' any city ring - however, we can settle a long line of cities, i.e. 5 horizontally aligned cities (this is what I refer to as snaking or chaining).
There is one soft exception to the chaining rule: If we somehow get a part of our chain capture by the enemy or even razed, we will not somehow disband the disconnected cities. We must, however, do everything we can to reestablish a connection, be recapturing (no peace and armybuilding) or refounding (ASAP short of 0-turn whipping).
PS: One of the reasons I'm thinking about the 1-city Oracle is that it is the only way to get Budd and Confu into the same city. If we lose out on Buddhism or our capitol has no good reason to grow, etc, though, we will adjust.
Mid-game slaving/drafting is going to be insanely strong.
well then after a city reaches 100 culture, it pops its third ring and we have no chance to keep the city, except maybe a culturebomb in a nearby city. but i don't think this works. bye bye, all those nice wonder-capitals we'll capture... 
btw: can you roll a start, zherak so we can discuss the settler move and start?
btw: can you roll a start, zherak so we can discuss the settler move and start?
stuge
Emperor
I agree, roll a start. The CoL slingshot will be much quicker with possible gold/gems in capital's BFC, so we can take that into account when we debate a second city before the Oracle.
shyuhe
Deity
Ok. Now that we're clarified on the rules, we can start the game 
Early warfare seems like it's not worth it unless absolutely necessary.
Early warfare seems like it's not worth it unless absolutely necessary.shyuhe said:
I don't think we'll really be able to choose when we will be in war. As we can't skip rings (makes sense) but can snake, we'll try to seal off as much land as possible, which will be hard as it costs lots of settlers. After we backfilled our land, we'll need to war. It seems to me that we'll be pretty much stagnating, until we get two civ's land (ours and one others I mean
). But for war we not only need units, we also need settlers...Another problem: we'll be settling on ressources a lot I'm afraid. This means that often, our city tiles will yield more that the usual 2/1/1 but the cities won't be able to work so many ressource tiles. However this is map- and luckdependant.
We wont be leaving out cities to have our other cities work more tiles, right? This in fact isn't against the rules (as far as I can tell - did I miss something??) but doesn't match the theme...
shyuhe
Deity
I don't see the harm in tile juggling between cities. You do it playing normally so why would you constrain yourself here? It's like certain suburbs of a big city getting more love than other suburbs. I don't see what's wrong with that 
Zherak_Khan
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2006
- Messages
- 166
He's referring to building around a would-be-city, leaving a hole, making our cities less tight. Think of a donut.
This is definitely legal, it will leave a singe tile (the would-be-city) unworkable. Slightly against the spirit, but much better than founding in desert hell or similar.
I'll try getting the start rolled today, but might not play too much to leave time for discussion.
This is definitely legal, it will leave a singe tile (the would-be-city) unworkable. Slightly against the spirit, but much better than founding in desert hell or similar.
I'll try getting the start rolled today, but might not play too much to leave time for discussion.
Zherak_Khan
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2006
- Messages
- 166
Time to get the ball rolling and the cities sprawling.
Emperor, Asoka, Inland Sea with cylindrical world wrap, tropical.
The start is decent, with sheep, corn, river, some hills and a forest. It was dissappointing to find that we are on the extreme edge of the map, so I considered trying to move a bit inland - however, the risk of little resources and the cost in turns (we would have to spend at least two turns if we wanted to get proper line of cities beneath the capitol) made me found in place. We are on plains hill
In retrospect, it might have been a good idea to go one NW, which would have made the Capitol a production beast.
I open up with Meditation / Warrior, allowing our capitol to grow on the corn. We don't have the worker techs to justify worker first.
Ten turns later, we found Buddhism. The same turn, Hindiusm is founded (we would have lost it).
I set research to Agriculture, starting a Worker after having finished our third warrior. Our warrior runs into this guy's scout in the NE:
Gilgamesh is probably my least favourite AI to rush, short of Mali/Babylonia. Cre/Pro makes for tough nuts to crack. Thankfully, we are not going to war until much later anyway. We'll have more to talk about at Elephants/Muskets/Catas.
Our west-Warrior runs into a Bear - while I pray to the RNG-gods, the bear decides not to attack him at all (maybe an AI scout?).
I stop at turn 20. My scouting may seem incredibly weedy, but I had to work hard to dodge bears/lions/panthers.
We are currently researching AH for those sheep. The capitol seems somewhat void of resources, maybe hiding horses/copper/iron.
Progression:
- Finish AH, Bronze, get Priesthood for the Oracle, tossing in worker techs as needed and timing Writing. I think we need more cities before Oracle (Double-Holy isn't that much better than 2xSingle-Holy. Wall Street is far into the future).
- Get 1-3 Settlers out of Delhi before the Oracle. We have some Forests we can chop and ample food. (While building Oracle, Delhi can go size 5+Religion+Temple+Ivory). It isn't difficult to win Oracle if we commit, but we don't want to waste opportunities for getting our empire going.
- I suggest founding our next city 3N. It gets lots of good tiles quickly and might be our future science city (gearing Delhi for production). We get Ivory quickly and open three new spots. Horses/metal may change this, though.
Cities:
- 3N (Ivory/Commerce, good first ring)
- 3NE (one FP right away, from Delhi pop, gets us gold (we need to feed expansion) and opens 3NE+3E.
- 3NE+3E (Sheep right away, seizes a great river, much needed land.
- 3W (Will become a great production city, but no 1st ring food unless sharing corn, I don't think we need to rush this city).
Either Betruger takes is straight away or I'll do another 20 after we have had some discussion. Both is fine with me. These first turns aren't all that eventful, but seeing as these earlygame decisions is going to shape the rest of his game, I think some input is in order.
(Betruger: If you do pick it up, post before you start playing. I will do the same if I chose to resume it myself.)
[How do I give host pictures you don't have to click?]
Save attached.
Roster
Zherak_Khan (CET, GMT +1)
Betruger
shyuhe
ungy
stuge
mystyfly
Emperor, Asoka, Inland Sea with cylindrical world wrap, tropical.
The start is decent, with sheep, corn, river, some hills and a forest. It was dissappointing to find that we are on the extreme edge of the map, so I considered trying to move a bit inland - however, the risk of little resources and the cost in turns (we would have to spend at least two turns if we wanted to get proper line of cities beneath the capitol) made me found in place. We are on plains hill
In retrospect, it might have been a good idea to go one NW, which would have made the Capitol a production beast.
I open up with Meditation / Warrior, allowing our capitol to grow on the corn. We don't have the worker techs to justify worker first.
Ten turns later, we found Buddhism. The same turn, Hindiusm is founded (we would have lost it).
I set research to Agriculture, starting a Worker after having finished our third warrior. Our warrior runs into this guy's scout in the NE:
Gilgamesh is probably my least favourite AI to rush, short of Mali/Babylonia. Cre/Pro makes for tough nuts to crack. Thankfully, we are not going to war until much later anyway. We'll have more to talk about at Elephants/Muskets/Catas.
Our west-Warrior runs into a Bear - while I pray to the RNG-gods, the bear decides not to attack him at all (maybe an AI scout?).
I stop at turn 20. My scouting may seem incredibly weedy, but I had to work hard to dodge bears/lions/panthers.
We are currently researching AH for those sheep. The capitol seems somewhat void of resources, maybe hiding horses/copper/iron.
Progression:
- Finish AH, Bronze, get Priesthood for the Oracle, tossing in worker techs as needed and timing Writing. I think we need more cities before Oracle (Double-Holy isn't that much better than 2xSingle-Holy. Wall Street is far into the future).
- Get 1-3 Settlers out of Delhi before the Oracle. We have some Forests we can chop and ample food. (While building Oracle, Delhi can go size 5+Religion+Temple+Ivory). It isn't difficult to win Oracle if we commit, but we don't want to waste opportunities for getting our empire going.
- I suggest founding our next city 3N. It gets lots of good tiles quickly and might be our future science city (gearing Delhi for production). We get Ivory quickly and open three new spots. Horses/metal may change this, though.
Cities:
- 3N (Ivory/Commerce, good first ring)
- 3NE (one FP right away, from Delhi pop, gets us gold (we need to feed expansion) and opens 3NE+3E.
- 3NE+3E (Sheep right away, seizes a great river, much needed land.
- 3W (Will become a great production city, but no 1st ring food unless sharing corn, I don't think we need to rush this city).
Either Betruger takes is straight away or I'll do another 20 after we have had some discussion. Both is fine with me. These first turns aren't all that eventful, but seeing as these earlygame decisions is going to shape the rest of his game, I think some input is in order.
(Betruger: If you do pick it up, post before you start playing. I will do the same if I chose to resume it myself.)
[How do I give host pictures you don't have to click?]
Save attached.
Roster
Zherak_Khan (CET, GMT +1)
Betruger
shyuhe
ungy
stuge
mystyfly
Spoiler :
shyuhe
Deity
I use photobucket normally. I think you can direct link to the picture (not sure how it works for imageshack.
3N looks like the 2nd second city. Your proposed snaking order sounds good. We sure are going to be settling lots of cities this game We should skip the site 3E of the capital as building cities around it will result in a more productive use of the land. At least the first 3 cities we found will be on rivers so they'll be able to produce good commerce.
AH --> BW sounds good. I would pick up pottery before we start the oracle and chop out the oracle.
3N looks like the 2nd second city. Your proposed snaking order sounds good. We sure are going to be settling lots of cities this game
We should skip the site 3E of the capital as building cities around it will result in a more productive use of the land. At least the first 3 cities we found will be on rivers so they'll be able to produce good commerce.AH --> BW sounds good. I would pick up pottery before we start the oracle and chop out the oracle.
Settling in place is fine with me, that looks like a good site. I'm unsure where to found city #2... probabely 3N3E of cap (getting us 2 happy ress and a goldmine for further expansion, but we rather decide after AH comes in. I think we'll only need 1 settler before the oracle. There is no neighbour really nearby. Make sure Priesthood comes in the turn the settler finishes so we lose no turns. There aren't that many forests so we better start right away and can probabely keep some for the GL. I don't think we'll be building that many wonders so better decide for which ones we'll aim.
shyuhe
Deity
3N3E of cap requires 2 cities. We first have to go 3N, then settle city #3 3E of that.
As for wonders... I think oracle only. We'll need to divert most of the hammers to settlers to grab a fair chunk of land.
As for wonders... I think oracle only. We'll need to divert most of the hammers to settlers to grab a fair chunk of land.
r_rolo1
King of myself
Lurker comment:
<devil lawyer mode>What are you going to do if you simply can't settle a city 3 tiles away in any direction ( mountain range ,lake ,sea,.... )</devil lawyer mode>
<devil lawyer mode>What are you going to do if you simply can't settle a city 3 tiles away in any direction ( mountain range ,lake ,sea,.... )</devil lawyer mode>
shyuhe
Deity
We don't settle it. IT's in the rules.
r_rolo1
King of myself
@Zherak_Khan
For you to have images that you don't have to click for full size in imageshack ( I strongly recommend you to use photobucket or a similar, due to the fact that you can upload more than 1 picture at a time and the fact that you can sort pictures in files ), You need to copy the direct link ( the last one in list ) and put him between tags... For a example here is one of your images:
[IMG]http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/2056/civ4screenshot0009jf8.jpg
For you to have images that you don't have to click for full size in imageshack ( I strongly recommend you to use photobucket or a similar, due to the fact that you can upload more than 1 picture at a time and the fact that you can sort pictures in files ), You need to copy the direct link ( the last one in list ) and put him between tags... For a example here is one of your images:
[IMG]http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/2056/civ4screenshot0009jf8.jpg
The terrain we've got seems pretty decent.
It's a tough call where to settle our second city, personally I'm more inclined to 3W.
3N is generally the most appealing with lots of flood plains, but it has no production, and second city should focus on production early on, to help building workers/settlers/military.
Commerce is irrelevant at this point.
I agree that we should get 2-3 settlers before oracle using some heavy chopping.
With so many forest it might be a good idea to build 2 workers first, and then start chopping settlers.
We don't need those forests for health because we're on the river and we have +3 health from resources in our BFC alone, enough for the early game.
I can pick the game up later today.
It's a tough call where to settle our second city, personally I'm more inclined to 3W.
3N is generally the most appealing with lots of flood plains, but it has no production, and second city should focus on production early on, to help building workers/settlers/military.
Commerce is irrelevant at this point.
I agree that we should get 2-3 settlers before oracle using some heavy chopping.
With so many forest it might be a good idea to build 2 workers first, and then start chopping settlers.
We don't need those forests for health because we're on the river and we have +3 health from resources in our BFC alone, enough for the early game.
I can pick the game up later today.
