BTS 3.13: Infinite City Sprawl 01 - Manhattan Empire

[shyuhe]

The granary depends on if you're going to whip or not. If you're not going to whip out any settlers, then you don't need it. I was assuming as few 2 pop whips for the settlers to speed up the process...

You should be able to chop out the axes. There's one next to the copper and you can chop one of the forests near Delhi as well. That's basically 2 axes right there.

 

[stuge]

I'd build a granary and whip some settlers for two pop, applying overflows to a temple.

Or you can use chops, or save them for axes, or whatever. The important thing is to keep expanding. I suggest settling 6N next and then going for a gold source. 3W is good as well.

 

[shyuhe]

I would skip 3W for now. We want to expand towards the ocean (N) as that land looks a lot better. Now that I think about it, whipping settlers won't be as fast because we'll have to insert non-settler builds between settlers. I guess you could do settler (whip) - axe - settler (whip) - axe. But that requires a granary first so I think going straight to settler/axe will be better.

 

[Betruger]

Not really sure about that temple, I forgot the neither Oracle nor Monastery allows us to hire a priest. Might be worth it, it's a tough call.

You're probably right about Alphabet and Mono followed by Alpha seems like a good plan.

 

[Betruger]

I wouldn't use the whip in Delhi, that city has too much hammer output already for whip to be efficient.

 

[Zherak_Khan]

Ungy: Great to see good discussion. Post a formal 'got-it' if/when you do 'have it'.

My input:

Don't whip Delhi. We want it size 8 and kicking as soon as possible, I don't see the sense in whipping it. This also means it doesn't need a granary. Temple is dirt-cheap (Spi) - throw it in when we actually need it (that is, when approaching 8) - I don't think getting the Prophet is such a hurry. How are we going to dodge 3rd Prophet (unless we do want him, that is)?

Settlers, axes and workers.

We do not seem to have any consensus on techs. I don't have any particularly strong opinions, but I think our research targets should be:

- Alphabet, for tech trading. (I don't have very much experience with early Alphabet, but we should be able to get some meaty trades for Alphabet/CoL.)
- Currency, for trade routes and markets. (Trade routes are an easy +1 commerce per city. Market will give 1 happy (Ivory) and 25% coins (Shrine).)
- Monotheism, for OR for missionaries / +25% buildings. (Important, we are soon going to start spamming Religion and getting infrastructure.)
- Monarchy, for HR -> Happiness. (I don't see the rush for more happiness, besides, I thinkt trading for Monarchy is a good idea.)
- Iron Working, for revealing Iron (in Delhi?) (Hm...)

It actually seems to me that there aren't any techs we really need yet. Monotheism and/or Alphabet -> Trades -> Currency seems most sensible to me.

Are we going to want to a Buddhist or a Confucian shrine?

Btw, consider losing our StateReligions for cultural reasons.

Do we even have Pottery yet?

EDIT: Looked over the last turnset. Seems discussion is getting ahead of actual play . We need a settling order and urgency denotation:

- 3NW: Copper. ASAP.
- 6N: Wheat. Great for building settler/whipping axes. As soon as we think we can protect it.
- 3W: Sheep/hill. Will help spam axes and missionaries. Little distance cost / travel time. Easily protected. ASAP.
- 3NE: Gold. It seems like a crap spot (very little food, especially pre-CS, but if we give it the FP and riverside Grass, it can work gold, mined plains hills and mined grass hills). Gold will be valuable, little distance cost. Allows us 3N6E. ASAP.
- 3N6E: Seems like a decent riverside city. Haven't given it enough thought yet.
- 9N: Gems (commerce, even if we don't really need much happiness), nice terrain. As soon as we can protect it and have enough workers.

We should think about designating a cottage-centre. This city will have to be allowed more than the usual amount of tiles. I'm thinking one of 3N and 6N. Maybe 3N and 9N. How soon do we want to start spamming the cots?

Note: Caste system + 3 turns of artist = border pop.
Note2: How about planning to shift Delhi to a Shrine+Great Merchant Farm? It should be able to run 5 merchants pretty early on, which, in combination with Shrine+Market+(...)+Wall Street+Settled GMs can pay upkeep for much of our empire. This makes it even easier to spam cities and skipping Market+Grocer in them, seeing as they don't need health/happiness (few tiles, low size) or +%coins (100% research). Throw in a NEpic and Wall Street and we have a winner?

It might be waste of a good production city, particularly if we pop iron, though. No need to commit yet, but it is a cute idea I'd love to see. Remember - GMFarms have positive feedback. Food is better than hammers (Prophets).

 

[ungy]

Ungy: Great to see good discussion. Post a formal 'got-it' if/when you do 'have it'.

got it formally.

Don't whip Delhi. We want it size 8 and kicking as soon as possible, I don't see the sense in whipping it. This also means it doesn't need a granary. Temple is dirt-cheap (Spi) - throw it in when we actually need it (that is, when approaching 8) - I don't think getting the Prophet is such a hurry. How are we going to dodge 3rd Prophet (unless we do want him, that is)?

I agree with not whipping and delaying the gran in Delhi.
I think getting a shrine sooner rather than later is worthwhile as that will help spread religion. I think

Settlers, axes and workers.

make more sense for the next set since the temple isn't necessary for happiness yet.

Tech wise I'll plan on hunting-mono-alpha.

6N as top setting site--I don't think another site happens this set.

 

[ungy]

OK-inherited turn:
T0--we switch Delhi back to the corn.
Oracle built--conf in Bombay.

T1 I put a turn in on temple in Delhi to let it grow to 6.
send both workers over to work the soon to be available copper
barb warrior 3NE of Bombay.

T2 We found Vijayanagara start on gran.
switch Delhi to settler.

T3 Bronze hooked up. Switch production to axe in Delhi and Vij.
Hunting in. Hmm I was careless in tech planning--mono needs both poly and masonry. I'm not a big fan of trading for those in an all contact game anyway for WFYABTA (especially with Alex and Genghis both low limit) so I self research them. I still think we'll get to alpha about the right time to trade for bigger techs.
Bombay starts a gran. If necessary we can whip an axe there.

OB all around.

IBT I get the slave revolt in Delhi I choose option 3 do nothing since growth there is slow.

T4 revolt continues.
T5 switch Bombay to axe--we may need it to defend against a barb near the copper.

T7 We meet the last AI --Izzie. We also find Genghis and Izzie.

T8 SH Built in Korea.

T10 with our third axe built I start a settler in Delhi.

T13 Alex comes with a demand--cancel deals with Korea. I refuse.

T14Delhi settler-settler.
We switch Bombay to a worker.

T15 Hmm now Korea wants me to cancel with Alex. I again decline but we're going to have to decide something soon here.

T16 Cyrus takes Hindu and Genghis Jud. I take no religion for the moment.

T17 barb archer east of Delhi. Switch Delhi to axe.
We form Pataliputra 6N. We find Cyrus to the W of Izzie.

T19 barbs are starting to come but our defenses are OK I think.

T20 More barbs--I switch Vij to an axe just to be safe. If the next emperor thinks unneccessary that's fine.

Notes:
1. Cyrus has alpha but no myst so not so easy to trade w/o giving him a bunch of stuff. We might want to do that to set up an alpha trade but not sure.

2. We are in NO RELIGION. This can be changed next turn.

3. We have a conf missionary I chose not to use. I didn't think the border pop in Vij was too important and I wanted to see what natural spread we might get (none). Obviously we want to reconsider this.

4. I think we need to find Alex and Wang and develop a diplomatic/ longer term plan now. We need some more scouting. My bad on the scouting but something (barb) always seemed to come up

 

[ungy]

save is here:

 

[Zherak_Khan]

Looking good. Stuge up, with mystyfly on deck. A lot of the earlier discussion is still very relevant. Mystyfly, we are not playing to win a world championship in here, so as long as you feel you can play along with our overall strategy and add something to the general discussion, I am happy to have you in the roster - even if some of the team members are strongly opinionated on what is optimal play .

I tend to never sign OB early game unless I have a special reason, like trade routes. Too much whining from other AIs. Once foreign trade becomes a concern, I generally try finding a few sensible AIs to OB with.

Also, I am surprised we have spent so much time Buddhism. The only benifit of state religion is the one happy, religious civic and diplo. The penalities are less culture (if multiple religions) and diplo, both of which are rather significant early game.

I generally agree with not trading for filler techs (any techs >200 beakers), unless there is some specific need. Something I do alot in these games is to sell techs for money. There is no WFYABTRich in this game, so one gold per three beakers is very often a sound idea. Selling stuff like meditation and polytheism is pure win in my book.

 

[shyuhe]

The interesting variant rules make for varying opinions on how best to handle the novel situation If you don't agree with what any of us say (I think I'm in the minority so far), feel free to ignore our advice. Of course if you ignore team consensus, you may get

If we have to choose between Alex and Wang, I'd take Alex as buddies. He's a useful attack dog and Wang isn't easily bribed into wars. Plus Alex is closer to us.

I forgot about the Confucianism culture bonus when I swapped at the end of my set. However having a capital one size larger is a pretty big factor. We're spiritual so we can swap between religions as necessary as well. So if we need to pop borders, we can go no state for 5 turns.

I agree that filler techs aren't worth trading for. I imagine we'll hit WFYABTA pretty eraly in this game based on our neighbors. Let's try to keep it for some good techs.

 

[Zherak_Khan]

(As a tangent, in one of my test games, playing Ramesses Pangea Small Emperor, I snagged a Hindu/Jew/Confu/Christianity (Oracle + Prophet) Hydra and won a Apostolic Palace victory after eliminating Monty, having two early perma-Hindu allies aiding me in wars and votes.)

 

[stuge]

I may have to use the full 48 to play. The plan is to keep expanding. Any views on city order?

Also, what does everyone think about sucking up to Alex? I think it's a sensible idea.

 

[Zherak_Khan]

We are not in any particular hurry. Just figure out if you will be able to play within reasonable time (some days) and take your time.

 

[shyuhe]

I vote 6N of the capital. After that, I'd go 3N-6W. 6N is a good commerce city. 3N-6W is a good production city. I prefer settling commerce --> production but the reverse order works as well if we're concerned about pumping out more axes.

 

[ungy]

I tend to never sign OB early game unless I have a special reason, like trade routes. Too much whining from other AIs. Once foreign trade becomes a concern, I generally try finding a few sensible AIs to OB with.

I may be mistaken on this but I thought OB sped religion spread even w/o trade routes. That was my goal.

Does OB increase the AI whining? I did not know that.

Also, I am surprised we have spent so much time Buddhism. The only benifit of state religion is the one happy, religious civic and diplo. The penalities are less culture (if multiple religions) and diplo, both of which are rather significant early game.

Well until we got the ivory hooked up we needed the happy. I did switch out once Persia and Genghis took religion (was same turn). Probably should have switched a few turns earlier but didn't seem compelling. I guess I just figured diplo w/Izzie is a lost cause this game but she's far away.

 

[ungy]

I vote 6N of the capital. After that, I'd go 3N-6W. 6N is a good commerce city. 3N-6W is a good production city. I prefer settling commerce --> production but the reverse order works as well if we're concerned about pumping out more axes.

I think we'll be more commerce limited than production so I agree with you.
6N we have--do you mean 9N with the gems? Seems like we really need IW for that one.

 

[shyuhe]

I took a look at the save. Sorry ungy - I didn't look at the report close enough

Everybody is either annoyed or cautious with Wang - we really should have ditched OB when Alex asked us to... Am I the only one who opens F4 when the AI comes with a demand before deciding? As long as you click exit (not hit esc) when closing out of the F4 screen, you can check diplo before you decide.

I vote 6N-3W (commerce) followed by either 3W or 3N of that (both production). Our cities are paying more for distance than # of cities right now so we should still REX more. # of cities is costing us about 1 gold and distance will cost about 2-3 for these outer cities. I don't like going to gems because we don't have IW yet and it'll be useless otherwise. That being said, we may want to tech IW after monotheism.

We may also want to consider growing east as well. 6N-3E (for gold) and 6N-6E (production) will both make good cities. There's a fair amount of barb action going on - another axe probably wouldn't hurt but we shouldn't need that many more. Just make sure our settlers are escorted and we'll be fine.

Also we are spiritual. Let's adopt caste system unless we have a need to whip something out. The slave revolt event is on so we shouldn't stay in slavery more than necessary. Try to time all the whips to come in a 5 turn span and we can maximize the civic swapping.

 

[Betruger]

I still vote to settle 3W first. It's by far the strongest location available, it's close by so little distance maint. cost, and it will be a strong production city, which we still need.
At this point only Delhi is a strong production site, and I cannot emphasize enough the need to have 2 strong production cities in the early game. One just cannot cope with all the military / settler / worker builds.
Also, if needed, production cities can build wealth. Riverside plains hill mine will net us 5gpt, which is quite decent at this point. If we ever run into money problems (which I doubt we will, once we have the shrine) we'll have wealth as a emergency measure.

Another idea that's worth considering is to later focus our espionage efforts on Wang.
He's likely to be the tech leader among the AIs and we'll have really lots of espionage points from all these courthouses, so we can actually play spies, which is fun

 

[ungy]

Everybody is either annoyed or cautious with Wang - we really should have ditched OB when Alex asked us to... Am I the only one who opens F4 when the AI comes with a demand before deciding? As long as you click exit (not hit esc) when closing out of the F4 screen, you can check diplo before you decide.

I didn't know you could do that in that situation. That's good info.