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[BtS] Immortal Sury Game

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by awilder, Jan 24, 2011.

  1. awilder

    awilder Warlord

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    Hi everyone, I've finally decided to go through a game on the forums after lurking for a long time. I'm hoping to step my game up to Deity level and I think the best way to do that is to learn as much as I can from you guys. I've learned a lot just by reading, but now I'm hoping to get specific advice on a game; maybe I can even help others improve along the way! I'm planning to post frequent and short updates, but that will depend on the response.

    If you shadow, please don't post anything beyond what I've played, as it will affect people's advice even if it's spoilered. Also, if you do shadow+post, please put it in spoilers.

    Settings are IMM/fractal/normal/standard etc

    Turns 1-66: Building the Oracle
    Turns 66-77: Decisions, decisions
    Turns 77-115 (1AD) Wonder (fail) whore
    Turns 115-142 (640 AD) Liberalism
    Turns 142-161 (1010 AD) War is coming
    Turns 161-184 (1240 AD) Qin gone - Mansa next
    Turns 184-194 (1340 AD) Mansa joins up - 'recruit' Willem next?
    Turns 194-222 (1560 AD) The End


    I rolled a random leader and start, and came up with Sury:



    Pretty sweet leader if you ask me. Creative is great, and his UB is baller. Pretty marginal UU imo, but I rarely phant war anyway, so maybe it will give me an excuse to do it this game and try ballista phants out.

    Here's the start:



    Looks pretty amazing but maybe it's a good idea for me to start off with an easy map so I don't embarrass myself :/

    Thoughts?

    I think I might settle 1N to get both gold, and try for the oracle. Maybe even try for some kind of slingshot depending on how much room we have? SIP we aren't on a river anyway, right? Maybe 1S for the floodplains you can see at the edge of the fog and to be on river would work too. Prolly moving scout south either way. Please let me know what you think.


    P.S. I use Bug+Bull+Bat so I hope that doesn't screw with ppl viewing the saves. I dunno about that sort of stuff.

    P.P.S. Events and huts(obviously) are ON. I forgot to turn them off. Oh well, next time.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    exp+cre is very good trait combination you get discount on granary AND library...what more you can ask and no need to build monuments...

    you should turn on resource bubbles next time, because this way people checking in from school/work etc. can't see what you have there.

    Food and hammers are pretty important early game too, so you should move for another gold only if you see there you pickup good food resource (but really can't judge what kind of food resources you have after moving...and what is the 1N kind of resource?).
     
  3. Kid R

    Kid R Emperor

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    Good luck, looking forward to it :goodjob:

    1S might be worth a turn - could have a look with the scout first. Can't lose anything but trees.

    I love playing as Sury - great leader, surprising we don't see more forum games with him. Maybe madscientist's game ruined him for ever :crazyeye: :crazyeye: :crazyeye: :crazyeye:
     
  4. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Do you just mean BAT? BAT includes BUG/BULL

    what map is this?
     
  5. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    It's pretty unlikely that you'll be able to work both gold tiles settling 1N since your only early food will be the unirrigated corn. I'd go 1S to add more river tiles.
     
  6. awilder

    awilder Warlord

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    @lymond:

    The map is fractal with normal speed and standard size. All other setting standard but huts and events ON. Thanks for reminding me.

    @shyuhe:

    I *could* work both gold tiles with the corn and a farm or two, but you're probably right that it would slow growth too much.

    I'm thinking 1s is much better in the long run. I was just thinking dub gold could set up a pretty sick oracle shot. I'm planning on sending the scout to that hill to the SE (not going over the hut ofc) and see why the blue circle is there. Question: would I get one extra base commerce for settling on the silk? I'm almost sure I don't want to as it looks like north is all flat riverless grassland which is great once you're at Bio+SP but not so hot early, but I'm still weighing...
     
  7. Vaidd

    Vaidd Worker

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    I agree with settling 1S, but first I'd move the scout 2S (by way of the hut) to see what I'd be getting. Assuming no surprises, you could tech Ag -> BW for some quick growth and chops. One of your first few cities would then claim and work the northern gold.

    By the way, would you mind posting screenshots with resource bubbles on? I believe the hotkey is CTRL-R.

    It looks like a good start. Good luck, and have fun! :)
     
  8. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    No you don't get extra coin for settling on the silk. The unimproved tile must have better than a 2/1/1 base yield for you to get anything extra.
     
  9. awilder

    awilder Warlord

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    @shyuhe
    Thanks, I was always curious about that; good to know!

    @vaidd
    I'd really rather not pop the hut before settling, since that way you can't get a tech. Also, you can generally see a lot farther from an unforested hill than from a flat forest. I don't know the rules exactly, but we will definitely reveal more info from the hill.

    I moved the scout to the hill, and I was wrong about a floodplain SESE; it's sheep! That bit of green leaking over into the tile fooled me.
    1S is looking like the play here:



    Bubbles now on. SW we can see a couple of hills, and directly S I think two more brown ones, which solves the only issue I thought we had which was lack of production. This looks like a really strong start; 2 gold was tempting, but not worth it here. Early tech looks like a straightforward "tech to improve tiles" start (that includes BW), followed by teching med>priesthood for oracle, with something maybe teched for barbs in between depending on what is revealed. If I see marble, probably make it poly>priesthood to get lit>GLib later. I will try to play a round tonight. Thanks for the input so far; keep it coming!
     
  10. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Going for the Oracle makes sense with a gold tile in the capital. What you can get from it will depend on your surroundings.

    Meditation > Polytheism only if you're really tight on commerce, I would say. Poly is a prerequisite to Litterature whereas Meditation is a prerequisite to Philosophy. Philosophy is needed much later than Litt. Polytheism also opens the Temple of Artemis and a trade for Monotheism...
    With the Oracle, you can settle 1-2 cities before reaching Priesthood. If you do 1, then Polytheism "should" be fine. If you do 2, then Meditation is obviously safer.

    Another point you will have to consider :
    Being Creative + Expansive + having a sheep to pasture makes the road to Writing a headache.
    You can get all the discounts going AH -> Pott -> Writ but delaying the Oracle.
    Or skip Pott until after the Oracle is done. Does not work if you want Metal Casting.


    Issue at hand :
    Settle 1S, research Agriculture (then AH for growth), send the scout North East around the gold tile then around the capital counterclockwise. Can a 2nd city take the other gold + a food tile ?
    Is that... the Northern hemisphere ?
     
  11. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    1S most def and farm up - health will never be an issue
     
  12. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Welcome to the forums. :)

    I don't think the UU is "marginal" - I actually think it's the worst in the game (or at least in the bottom 3). :lol: Just ignore them for now.

    As for settling, you could go north for both gold, south for the sheep, and possibly 1 or 2 other locations. As mentioned before going 1S is the best move in my opinion. It improves the plains tile below, keeps gold, gets sheep, health, and has forests. If you're going for the Oracle, I would suggest you research Polytheism as Meditation can easily be researched in 1 turn while at 50% or less research when you've just finished a technology.
     
  13. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    The UU is fun if you get phants, especially against horse lovers like the Khans. But without ivory...
     
  14. awilder

    awilder Warlord

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    Thanks for all the input so far guys. This game looks like it might be a cakewalk so far, with the awesome start (it gets even better!) but hopefully it will still be a fun cakewalk ;). And I'm still hoping to get some comments about how I could optimize of course...

    I settled 1S. Started with a worker. This is where expansive comes up nicely:



    I have the fabled 3 hammer forested plains tile, so I can get a worker in 12 turns. Remember the production bonus for expansive only works w/ hammers; not food.

    My scout goes around in a spiral as discussed, and pops mysticism from a hut. How embarassing :mischief:



    Then he pops fishing from the next one! Oh well at least I didn't pop something huge like metal casting and make it a total gong show. Huts off next game probably.

    Tech path was pretty straightforward at first:

    AG>AH>BW

    BW for the chops to go into workers, settlers, and the oracle as planned.

    Build order went
    Worker>Warrior>Warrior>Settler>Worker>Worker
    I did do a couple of tile switches to speed up the first warrior (I often do this to start busting spawn asap) and time with some chops/research stuff.

    and at that point I put a chop into the oracle. In retrospect I probably should have put it in a Settler, but I'm not sure how the mechanics of AI wonder discouragement goes. If you put in a significant amount (30ish) does that lower their odds of building it by more than a smaller amount (~10).

    Anyway, the teching for the rest of the round (which was more debatable prob) went
    Poly(took only one more turn than med, so poly it was)>Priesthood>The Wheel>Writing>Masonry>a couple beakers into math

    I met a few neighbors:
    First Qin of China



    He's pretty close. And industrial too; uh oh!

    Next Mansa



    Haha I haven't seen the "small civ" bonus before, although I just switched to 3.19 (patch didn't work before for me:sad:). Is that a first impression thing or a scoreboard thing?

    Then Willem



    pretty weird land feature there.

    As of turn 66, Willem and Mansa have different religion and are each other's worst enemies. I don't know much about Qin; can someone link me to the leader info thing? Anyway seems pretty safe atm.

    Here is the state of the world at turn 66. First techs:



    Next capital:



    note the one turn from Oracle: see below

    Finally the land:


    and


    Unfortunately my scout died out there, should have been leaving him with a retreat movement point in the flat that late but I was greedy, and he got stuck full of arrows.

    I have been really slow expanding, but I think we should be ok for at least 6 nice cities. Hariharalaya and the cap are such good cities. SEVEN resources between them, wow. I need to get a settler out to that warrior on a hill asap. Maybe I should change from the chariot or whip it? Also, I have OB with Qin. Should I also open willem and hope for a religion? Not both Willem and Mansa IMO. If I go Willem's religion, it should be OK I think because Mansa is so easy to please, and he will trade pretty much however he feels about me right?

    Finally, where to go from here. I think it's too late for pyramids, despite the stone. I could go for it maybe somewhere and be happy with failure gold at a discount though. I am really considering the hanging gardens if I can do something about happy cap in the near future, like get a religion. As fir the Oracle, I left it one turn from completion (I also waited one turn more for some reason, I think to complete some roads and stuff and start the library). The big question is what to get with it. Options/Possibilities:

    1) Civil Service gambit?
    After the library gets in, I think I can get 45 beakers a turn or so rearranging some tiles. Also the worker on the gold hill is about to connect to Qin's road, so I'll get some trade commerce as well. So I think roughly 16-18 turns to get both math and code of laws. This would put me beyond 1000BC. That seems pretty late, and it's high risk/reward. Maybe not the game for that.

    2) Currency?
    This is a great tech, but less so for us because we have only 3 cities. If I decide to go this way I would want 2-3 more settlers out as I hit currency IMO. I think this is fairly safe. Problem is I really don't know how much the AI avoids a wonder if you have hammers in it.

    3) Metal Casting/Code of Laws/Monarchy
    These I could all get right away. I view them as various happy cap solutions. I think Metal Casting is most attractive here but at the same time it only gives me one happy only where I build a forge.

    If it were me playing alone, I would probably wait for Qin to finish alphabet (I can see his research and he has 6 turns to go on it) and see if he has priesthood. If I could trade him something to get alpha and see that neither Mansa nor Willem has priesthood (they founded hindu and bud) then I would shoot all the way for CS. If someone has it I would probably grab code of laws and go for early civil service soonish anyway (maybe calendar first for the silk). The cap would just be sooo good under bureaucracy. I would really like to hear some thoughts on this.

    A couple of self-criticisms:
    -I should have had the workers road up a trade network and do a couple more improvements first (like cottaging the FP). Since I was pretty sure I would delay the Oracle anyway, I would end up near the same place. Well, at least my library will come up very soon. The chop I put in the oracle first should have gone in a settler as explained above.
    -I panic-whipped a warrior in the cap once when a barb warrior was a couple steps away, but I didn't see Mansa and Willem had some units in the area which took out the warrior for me. (other than this barbs have not been a problem, there were some strategic forested hills for my warriors to take out a couple of archers, and Qin is right there, as well as my two spawnbusters.)
    -More stuff??

    To be continued...
     
  15. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    I would think about oracling monarchy for HR

    if you stay in tech business with willem and MM that will be some skyrocket teching here.
     
  16. Kid R

    Kid R Emperor

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    Corn/hills Qin blocking city looks extremely important given the land visible in the screenies. I think I would have gone there instead of horsie/fishie. You have no barb worries so the chariots weren't essential.

    Delaying the oracle even 1 unecessary turn on immortal is liable to lose it, let alone 16-18 extra turns :eek: Take MC now, it's an expensive tech with excellent trade value, and a forge in Yaso will make it even more of a hammer monster than it already is. Incidentally I think you should have farmed the floodplain, the cap is already struggling a bit for food.

    I don't think you need monarchy yet, besides which you might get the pyramids if you get that stone hooked up. I'd try for it anyway for forge+stone failgold.

    Doesn't look a total cakewalk of a map, but it's a nice cosy corner and it's fairly clear what has to be done as Qin is the only realistic target. Good write up - keep em coming!
     
  17. PaulusIII

    PaulusIII Unholy Warlord

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    I think it's a BUG/BAT/BULL feature. It accounts for some of the previously 'hidden' diplomatic modifiers, such as peaceweight and civilization size. I couldn't see these in the unmodded 3.19 patch (or I haven't been paying attention :blush: )

    While Qin is a backstabber (80% peace probability on Pleased!), he is usually not very agressive. The datasheet lists his agression level as 'quite low', which is second-to-lowest - only Gandhi and Mansa are more peaceful! He spends more time on building wonders than on troops.

    Mansa is indeed very easy to keep happy and he will trade - highest WFYABTA limit, no restrictions on what he trades. The only problem is that that goes for the other AI's as well. Techs Mansa has might as well be considered public domain. I don't think he trades with his worst enemy Willem though. :mischief:

    As for the Oracle - get it ASAP and get an expensive tech for it. MC is a good idea as is CoL - Monarchy less so because it's also very easy to acquire in trades as it somehow doesn't count to the 'we don't want to start trading this technology away just yet' - limit. Be sure to trade everything in one go, so that Mansa doesn't get the chance to tradewhore your bargain tech around.
     
  18. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    Agri--AH was a better tech open here since you have both farm and pasture resources. You get a slight research discount that way.
     
  19. awilder

    awilder Warlord

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    @vranasm

    HR is definitely a thought, and I don't have metal hooked up so I can pump out warriors super quick. My hesitation is bc AI trades Monarchy with no hesitation. Perhaps another reason to wait those 6 turns for Alpha to come in for Qin and see what he's got!

    @Kid R

    Agree on the corn/hill site. Reason I settled horses first was that it was not so clear barbs were pretty much solved. Even now I feel much safer having a chariot in whip range up north. I will switch to a settler though and chop him out asap, deal?
    As for struggling on food, Cap is already at happy cap, and much of the struggle is due to me mining hills instead of irrigating grass, so I can still solve that when I have more :) to grow into. I almost never farm FPs near capital for the happy cap reason, and since it takes 7(!) turns, plus 5 probably later when you cottage it over. Maybe that's wrong though!

    @paulus
    Thanks for the info. I assume the "small civs should stick together" modifier falls in the same boat?

    @shyuhe
    I did go AG>AH :)

    EDIT: You can't see it in any of the screenshots above, but I can see Qin's research and he has 6 turns to go for alpha. Forgot it wasn't visible in any of them, oops!
     
  20. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    after a little bit thought I actually like getting Metal Casting and then from tech trades Monarchy, MM or Willem should be quick enough to Monarchy anyway.
    I have bad experience on Emperor with AI's not teching the way I would like in the time I would like, so I am a bit not on the correct wavelength
     

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