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[BtS] Rise of Mankind 2

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by zappara, Apr 29, 2008.

  1. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    I don't know about everyone else, but it always bothered me that writing came before alphabet. Shouldn't it be the other way around? How does one write without an alphabet?
     
  2. digitCruncher

    digitCruncher Emperor

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    As you can see in the screenie, there is a connection to the capital (however, it is also a coastal path, as I don't think there is a cart path set up yet.

    The map size is huge, which is why I ask, because it isn't NORMALLY that large!! Normally, 5 tiles away isn't even enough to warrent ANY unstability hit from 'distance from palace'...

    And have you heard of hieroglyphs?? That is how you have writing before alphabet. In fact, the ability to write is a VERY old technology, but developing an alphabet came hundreds of years (if not millenia) after the first written objects were made. There is a word that covers all written material which doesn't use an alphabet (pictograms or something), and the period of time between when your civ learns writing and when your civ learns the alphabet, they write with pictograms. :D
     
  3. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    I knew, as I was writing that, that some people were going to say "but the cave drawings..." Hieroglyphs are a form of alphabet. If they weren't, we could never translate them into English. You still need an alphabet before you can write. Otherwise it's just gibberish.
     
  4. Emerentius

    Emerentius Warlord

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  5. Stacmon

    Stacmon Explorer

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    I generally agree with this statement. There were certainly ways of codifying information in various forms before the development of a standardized alphabet.

    Writing is broader than what you may be thinking.

    For example, consider how different the writing systems are between China and most other parts of the world. Rather than an alphabet as most of us know it, some dictionaries such as the Kangxi Dictionary, contain over 40,000 characters (though much fewer are required for most uses, say about 1/10th of that). The English alphabet on the other hand contains only 26 letters.

    Basically there were many historical forms and approaches to capturing "written" information that predate a standard alphabet (though these alphabets were an important discovery and a "revolution" of their own).

    One of the main reasons we can understand the meaning behind hieroglyphs today are artifacts like the Rosetta Stone, which included them along with other well known ancient languages (like Latin and Greek). Hieroglyphs are largely pictoral and should not be confused with an alphabet.

    Think about it this way, what object does the letter "a" represent? The letter "b"?

    What objects/concepts do these characters represent? Can you get some idea just by looking at them?

     
  6. Hyronymus

    Hyronymus Troop leader

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    Evidence suggests Writing came after Alphabet. An Alphabet isn't just what your write down, it's also "the arranging of phonetical sounds".
     
  7. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    At least someone agrees. Anyways, if Emerentius would just read his own link, he would find this:

    Also, the Wikipedia article on writing systems says:

    @ Stacmon,

    Your argument could similarly be used to have mathematics moved ahead of writing and alphabet, as math is a writing system too.

    I have a feeling this convoluted debate is only going to intensify.:crazyeye:
     
  8. Wodan

    Wodan Deity

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    This discussion is really about communication vs language. Written (and oral) communication, that is, exchanging value-laden symbols, may make use of but does not require an alphabet.
     
  9. SomethingWitty

    SomethingWitty Prince

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    I think you got it backwards, writing came before the alphabet.

    Egyptian hieroglyphics are a mixture of ideagrams (symbols indicating ideas) and alphabetic elements, as was the mayan writing system

    Cuneiform and early chinese writing used pictograms

    A proper alphabet, where the entire writing language used an alphabet, was developed by the Phoenicians (etymology based on Greek word for "sound"?) and marked a substantial advancement in the system.
     
  10. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    The Greek word for sound? I was under the impression that the word "alphabet" comes from the first two letters of the Greek alphabet, alpha and beta.
     
  11. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Just to throw a spanner in the works, contracts also appear to pre date writing. Each person would have clay shapes to represent what was the bargin and then rap them in clay to seal the deal. Then when it was time to trade the goods they would then break open their own copy and compare it with the others and the deal would be concluded. The rapping in clay was presumably to stop cheating :)
     
  12. SomethingWitty

    SomethingWitty Prince

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    The greek word for "sound" is phone. As in telephone, phonics, or phonetic alphabet.

    (And I suppose the confusion here could be over the phonetic alphabets, which is what the technology in the game is talking about, vs. other writing system).

    I'm wondering is the name for the Phoenicians is based on the Greek: "people of the sounds," or if this is just a coincidence.
     
  13. Emerentius

    Emerentius Warlord

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    Please. read all the text.
     
  14. darkedone02

    darkedone02 The Suggestor

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    .... it make somewhat common sense that you learn the alphabet first before you learn to write and spell words and sentences before paragraphs. Before the Alphabet, there was pictures, like those hieroglyphs and cavemen paintings, "pictures speaks a thousand words" so to speak.


    Anyways, I noticed that there is a TXT bug on the "Drain Swamp", and also I still wish I get a faster FPS when I play your mod, I been playing on your mod on these settings:

    FoM_Continent, Small to high sea levels, Diety difficulty, and Normal speed.

    I've started to lag early before I even hit classical, that is how bad it's getting, I have FRAPs uploaded to see my FPS, and it's around 13 now when i am not doing anything, I have my settings set to default low on everything, and yet still get lag as well.

    my computer specs are this:

    Processor: Intel Pentium 4 Processor
    CPU Speed: 3.00 GHz
    OS: Windows Vista
    Video Card: ATI Radeon X1300
    Video Card RAM: 512 MB
    RAM: 2 GB
    HDD Space: 500 GB

    I want to get rid of some of this lag, but it get worser and worser when this mod updates, I used to get lag around medieval, but due to improvements and everything else, I've getting lag very early, which is not funny and not great for my patient with lag.
     
  15. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    This has gone wildly off track. Can we get back to Rise of Mankind now?

    (That said, the Phoenicians were the "purple people", based on the unique dye that they made and sold so successfully. Their cultural name comes from the Greek for "blood red", i.e. "purple".)
     
  16. SomethingWitty

    SomethingWitty Prince

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    It makes sense to you because that's how you learned to write. If you grew up in a traditional Chinese household, you'd learn how to write but you wouldn't be using an alphabet, but logograms.

    And Egyptian hieroglyphics are a writing system, they are not comparable to neolithic cave paintings.

    The decision by Civilization's creators to have writing before alphabet (goes back to Civ I or II doesn't it?) makes perfect historical sense.
     
  17. Daegan

    Daegan Chieftain

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    How many votes do we need to get this alphabet/ writing debate moved to a more appropriate thread? ;)
     
  18. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    Maybe we could throw away writing and replace it with a few techs. I imagine that we could have "Oral Tradition" because stories were first spread orally, then "Written Tradition;" this tech would take the place of writing, and then finally alphabet. Right now, writing is technically inaccurate, as it is defined as "the work of a writer; anything expressed in letters of the alphabet" by Princeton.

    @Daegon

    This thread is about ROM in general, and there is no 2.8 ROM suggestions thread, so this is the correct place for our debate.
     
  19. climat

    climat King

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    I usually think alphabet in Civ as Pheonician Alphabet so writing before alphabet makes sense.

    BTW, we may need suggestion thread other than bug & feedback thread..
     
  20. dwaxe

    dwaxe is not a fanatic

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    I have the same exact problem, and downloaded it from Atomic Gamer. Is there a way to fix it?
     

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