[BTS]TF-1 All Praise the Mahatma Day!

[TurdFerguson]

So, V8_mark and I have been discussing starting a Monarch SG, so here it is.

Civ: India
Leader: Gandhi
Map type:???
Difficulty: Monarch
Speed: Epic

Variants:
Go for UN Diplomatic Victory
Make every attempt to found Hinduism and stay in it for the game. If it is FIADL, then convert to it as soon as possible.

Roster:
V8_mark
TurdFerguson
kolokol
Ignorant Teacher
open

Variants are open to discussion and so is map type. I was thinking I'd like to try Tectonics/Mediterranean script just because I haven't, but it may not be appropriate for the variant.

V8_mark and I are new to SG's but I don't forsee that being a problem. I would like to see a lot of dicussion in this game, as diplomacy is one of my weaknesses.

 

[v8_mark]

Good stuff! Thanks TF (is it best to call you that? Turd looks weird... )

The concepts of founding Hinduism and concentrating on diplomacy could well be at odds - if we come across a Justinian who spreads Buddhism everywhere, leaving us as the sole Hindus, the diplomatic game is going to be very difficult.

Maybe we should try and spread our religion vigorously once adopted, regardless of what it is? Going for Hinduism first, as long as the map reasonably allows.

How do we feel about AP wins?

 

[v8_mark]

I'm easy on map type btw - don't really know what Mediterranean is, as I don't think I've ever played it.

Tectonics is fine, but it tends to be easier than most other mapscripts, simply because the AI can't cope with large expanses of plains, especially into the late game (it tends to cottage them). On the other hand, you can get screwed with your starting place.

Once we've decided on a map script, and we have a couple of volunteers, we can roll up some starts!

 

[TurdFerguson]

I rolled a Mediterranean start for a solo game and I'm thinking it may not be the best here. I usually run Fractal or Continents and was looking to mix it up a bit. Any suggestions?

I was thinking that perhaps that Hinduism thing might be what makes it challenging, but I honestly don't know how hard it will be to win diplomatic. I stated UN mostly because I have heard of AP "cheese" victories, which implies to me it is fairly easy if you go for it, but I have never tried it myself.

Perhaps I am not the best one to suggest variant/difficulty since I haven't ever won diplomatically. I can see how founding and sticking to a religion would be at odds with getting people to Pleased, but I am also under the impression, perhaps falsely, that diplomatic victories can be relatively easy if that is your focus. The religious variant was to try to add challenge.

As I said I don't really have much experience, so if you figure it is better to drop the Hindu thing, I'm on board.

 

[TurdFerguson]

Oh yeah, call me Turd, Fergie, TF, whatever you like.

Root of the name, if you're curious (from SNL)

 

[kolokol]

Hey guys

Can I join this game... Never played SG before and looking to get my feet wet.

Its been a while since I'vee played monarch but I like going for diplomatic wins, so I know a few tricks.

Winning UN with religious constaints will be difficult, but who says i has to be easy may have to get real creative with espionage.

? about the variant - i assume this is about winning peacefully but is all wars prohibited? may get tricky without at least one war to get ones pop up

 

[Dantski]

heh are you turdferguson I know?

 

[TurdFerguson]

kolokol, you're in!

I wasn't thinking that we would limit ourselves to no war, but perhaps we need something to discourage ourselves from ending up with a Domination win. Or maybe just turn off the victory conditions? Thoughts?

@Dantski, I don't think so.

 

[v8_mark]

Well, we could always make it up as we go along; running Hinduism, trying to get people to like us. If not, we'll just kill them and get their votes that way

Welcome aboard kolokol; by the comment that it's been a while since you played Monarch, I guess you're way above now?

 

[pholkhero]

lurker's comment:
if you're looking for a challenge, i've had a game kicking around in my head for about a year now: going for an AP win where EVERY city has the AP religion in it.

some say it's impossible . . .

 

[kolokol]

kolokol, you're in!

I wasn't thinking that we would limit ourselves to no war, but perhaps we need something to discourage ourselves from ending up with a Domination win. Or maybe just turn off the victory conditions? Thoughts?

I was thinking of 'diplomation' having 3-4 vassels vote for you or having 60% of the vote yourself. I don't like the idea of turning of VC's we all understand that the spirit of the game is diplomacy. War, if any, should only be done out of diplomatic necesity.

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

Like you guys, I'm new to SGs. In fact, I've never played one. Are you planning a standard map size? If so, can I join?

A question: can it be diplomation or does it have to be a peaceful diplo win?

 

[TurdFerguson]

Ignorant Teacher you're in Welcome!

Roster:
V8_mark
TurdFerguson
kolokol
Ignorant Teacher
open

Alright, we have a few things to clear up:

1. Are we going for UN or will we allow AP?
2. Wars, are we going as peaceful as possible (APAP?) or are we allowing wars?
3. If we allow wars, do we want any controls to limit "dilpomation" (I like that term)?
4. Religion: Stick to the Hindu restriction or open it up?
5. Map script: Tectonics/Mediterranean has been talked about, but I'm having second thoughts. Suggestions?

My answers:
1. I like UN only.
2. Definitely allow war.
3. Given that it is Monarch and some of us are Noble/Prince players, I say no limits, as long as we try for the diplomatic win. I agree with kolokol, I don't like turning off VC's.
4. I like the Hindu idea but I do not have enough experience to know if this will overly limit us for winning UN at Monarch.
5. I'm easy. Continents? Fractal? Medium or Big and Small? I guess I'd lean towards Continents if I had to pick.

Has anyone checked out this article from the War Academy on Diplo victories ? Is it still more or less relevant for BTS 3.19? Any suggestions of good strategy threads or old SG's to read up on Diplo tactics?

Shall we wait for one more sign-up?

 

[playshogi]

Lurker comment:


Diplomatic win parameters

You might try these conditions except for the Emperor part.
Also, try the Buffy Mod, -- I can hardly play a game without it, now.
Makes great Dot Maps.

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

Ignorant Teacher you're in Welcome!

Glad to be in the team.

Alright, we have a few things to clear up:

1. Are we going for UN or will we allow AP?

AP is too easy if we plan for it and grab Theology first.

2. Wars, are we going as peaceful as possible (APAP?) or are we allowing wars?
3. If we allow wars, do we want any controls to limit "dilpomation" (I like that term)?

Well, based on what you said in the registration thread, it seems that you're looking more for a traditional diplo. We could avoid declaring, but make sure to piss our targets enough so that they declare. After that, it could be fair game.

4. Religion: Stick to the Hindu restriction or open it up?

I like the idea of sticking to it, but I say we should let it go in case it's founded in another continent or if we become the only ones running it. Another possible issue with it is that it would kind of make us heathens and force us to win diplomation.

5. Map script: Tectonics/Mediterranean has been talked about, but I'm having second thoughts. Suggestions?

I'm up for any map scripts. I'm more used to playing Hemispheres and Fractal. Continents are fine too. I don't like B & S or M & S, too much island micro.

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

You might try these conditions except for the Emperor part.
Also, try the Buffy Mod, -- I can hardly play a game without it, now.
Makes great Dot Maps.

Buffy forces us all to share it in order to play. Most of the information BUFFY gives you is also in the BUG Mod. BUG lets you use it and have a save that can be opened by anyone with BTS.

 

[TurdFerguson]

Well, I use the BUG mod, (I think I'm on 3.6 but I upgrade to 4.0 for the start).

I'm pretty sure BUFFY introduces some minor tweaks for the HOF. Is anyone using BUFFY and if so, do you have a problem not loading it? Perhaps it doesn't matter?

From playshogi's link:

Spoiler :

Diplo isn't that tricky if you take out 1-2 civs and then align yourself with a block based on favorite civics.

Actually, enough attempts should let you make it using FR. Don't tech mono or theology and you can stay in FR without having the others request you switch. From there:

+4 fair trade
+2 open borders
+2 resource supply
+1 years of peace

You only need a net +8 for diplo win votes, so conceivably you can just rush straight for the UN with these leaders as long as you only piss 1-2 off. With some luck diplo can actually be straightforward here.

I'm sure there is a list somewhere on this site (but not sure where...) of hidden modifier-adjusted requirements for the Diplo vote - i.e. the required relations for Leader X to vote the human to a Diplo vistory. IIRC Gandhi and Zara are the only 2 leaders who vote on +6, a few others vote on +7, most vote on +8, and some require +9 or maybe even +10. I don't remember the required relation for any of the compulsory AIs in this game.

Anyone know about these modifiers ianw is talking about?

Everyone cool with random opponents are should be hand pick?

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

Well, I use the BUG mod, (I think I'm on 3.6 but I upgrade to 4.0 for the start).

I'm pretty sure BUFFY introduces some minor tweaks for the HOF. Is anyone using BUFFY and if so, do you have a problem not loading it? Perhaps it doesn't matter?

A game started on BUFFY will only open on BUFFY.

Anyone know about these modifiers ianw is talking about?

After Noble or Prince the AIs automatically give a hidden -1 for the human player.
Besides that, there's the base attituted each leader has. For example, Zara has a base +2 so it's not hard for him to be automatically pleased with you. Montezuma, OTOH, has a base -1 attitude.
Then, there's the peaceweight of each leader. (Only works in relations between AIs). Tokugawa's peaceweight is 1 and Lincoln's is 9 so they will not like each other much.
Finally there's the Warmonger Respect (only AI-AI too). Ragnar has a WR of 2 and Ramesses 0. In this case there's no penalty, just lack of bonus.

It can influence us in the following scenario. Let's say Ragnar is friendly with us, with +8 diplo points. We're running against Shaka. Rags is actually +7 with us because of the standard human penalty. If he has +6 points with Shaka, it's possible that he'll vote for the Zulu because:
-Rags peaceweight is 0 and Shaka's is 2. They're close so they like each other more (not sure how much).
-Rags WP is 2 and Shaka's is 2 as well.
In this case, Shaka will have between 1-3 free diplo bonus with Ragnar.

The opposite also helps us. If it were Sitting Bull, Rags would probably vote for us. I got all the information in the Civ4 BtS reference sheet.

Everyone cool with random opponents are should be hand pick?

No problem at all with Random.

Edit:Sorry, what I spoke about the modifiers didn't answer the question. I have to stop reading things too quickly or I'll keep embarrassing myself.

I don't know the answer for that specific question.

 

[v8_mark]

Anyone know what BUFFY has that BUG doesn't? I'm still on BUG 4.0.

Here are my answers:

1. Are we going for UN or will we allow AP?
AP might be easy, but it would also be in the spirit (haha) of the game. I'm happy to go with just UN though.

2. Wars, are we going as peaceful as possible (APAP?) or are we allowing wars?
Wars are fun

3. If we allow wars, do we want any controls to limit "dilpomation" (I like that term)?
Just play it by ear I think. Maybe a maximum of one vassal?

4. Religion: Stick to the Hindu restriction or open it up?
Stick to it if it's feasible given the map; if not then open it up.

5. Map script: Tectonics/Mediterranean has been talked about, but I'm having second thoughts. Suggestions?
I usually play Fractal, and find this gives the most balance, while being unpredictable. Continents is also fine, but a bit boring - I too dislike both Big and Small and Medium and Small, it tends to give long, snaky continents that look like prison bars.

So yeah, I'm easy whatever, as you can see.

 

[TurdFerguson]

AFAIK, BUFFY allows you to play HOF/GOTM games and BUG doesn't. But otherwise the same feature set. I believe the HOF mods are to remove some exploits.