[BTS Total Mod] Thomas' War

[mrwhite89]

Thanks for the instructions. I'm playing my first game as Sargon the Great!

 

[Lord Tirian]

Though, this will sound odd...but I've seen the background disappear talking to leaders, despite that setting was set to default. Generally, I get away with it once, but a couple leaders later the game crashes.

I've experienced that as well - and it's most probably a memory issue, as I could get rid of it by a) lowering the overall graphics and b) making more memory available (i.e. shutting down other applications).

But the static leaderheads are appreciated, will probably help a lot - Thomas' War is pretty heavy on system requirements... so every bit helps.

Cheers, LT.

 

[tsentom1]

I've experienced that as well - and it's most probably a memory issue, as I could get rid of it by a) lowering the overall graphics and b) making more memory available (i.e. shutting down other applications).

But the static leaderheads are appreciated, will probably help a lot - Thomas' War is pretty heavy on system requirements... so every bit helps.

Cheers, LT.

I know and it makes me wary to even start thinking about the next version. The more I add the worse it'll get. Seeing as a good portion of the file size is from the 68 new 3D leaderheads I figured it would be helpful.

 

[Sonereal]

Hey, I like this mod, but is there a way to turn leaderheads off? Or maybe replace them with a static picture?

The leaderheads are very well done and all, but the extradorinary download time combined with the slowness of the game deep into it kinda runs things into the negative for me.

 

[Mister Giggles]

I somewhat doubt it's a problem with eating up a system's memory. I have 750 some odd megs of it for my video card, and two gigs more for system memory, and neither are even close to being maxed out in a typical game of civilization. Rise of Mankind does the job far better than Thomas' War in sucking up resources, and it's perfectly stable no matter what's going on (Latest version. Previous versions...not so much).

Being as a system roughly twice as powerful as mine is experiencing the exact same issues during the same period of gameplay, would it not then be prudent to assume that it's not how much "stuff" is in Thomas' War, but that there's some kind of bug, either in Thomas' War itself or in the way one of its features interacts with a certain brand of hardware?

Thomas' War at this point is one of the better balanced mod packs out there that adds to all spectrums of gameplay, and it would be most disappointing to me to see it hacked apart. The wisest route to take is to go through the modpack one component at a time (Unit graphics, leader graphics, building infos, unit infos, etc...) and ensure there are no mistakes in the XML anywhere, then do the same with the Python, then the graphics being used.

It'll take forever, granted, but you'll most likely stumble upon the problem in the process. I'm willing to playtest any solution or tweaked file you propose in the meantime, being that I utterly lack any useful knowledge of XML, and more importantly, python.

 

[tsentom1]

I somewhat doubt it's a problem with eating up a system's memory. I have 750 some odd megs of it for my video card, and two gigs more for system memory, and neither are even close to being maxed out in a typical game of civilization. Rise of Mankind does the job far better than Thomas' War in sucking up resources, and it's perfectly stable no matter what's going on (Latest version. Previous versions...not so much).

Being as a system roughly twice as powerful as mine is experiencing the exact same issues during the same period of gameplay, would it not then be prudent to assume that it's not how much "stuff" is in Thomas' War, but that there's some kind of bug, either in Thomas' War itself or in the way one of its features interacts with a certain brand of hardware?

Thomas' War at this point is one of the better balanced mod packs out there that adds to all spectrums of gameplay, and it would be most disappointing to me to see it hacked apart. The wisest route to take is to go through the modpack one component at a time (Unit graphics, leader graphics, building infos, unit infos, etc...) and ensure there are no mistakes in the XML anywhere, then do the same with the Python, then the graphics being used.

It'll take forever, granted, but you'll most likely stumble upon the problem in the process. I'm willing to playtest any solution or tweaked file you propose in the meantime, being that I utterly lack any useful knowledge of XML, and more importantly, python.

That's what I'm currently doing.

The fact that I'm releasing static packs shouldn't indicate I view those as a solution just that going through everything is going to take a long long time and those are just things I can release really quickly that could help in the interim.

Also, directly comparing it to RoM in terms of using up resources isn't exactly a fair comparison as RoM uncompressed is around 380 - 400 MB and Thomas' War uncompressed is around 1.3 GB. Thomas' War is actually a lot more resource heavy than RoM and adding more 'stuff' even if potentially not the cause does add to the problem.

However, I have no doubt that a coding mishap in XML, python, etc or specific graphic models are causing the problems. Additionally, I still need to do further testing with the Colonization Assets. RoM currently doesn't use them (or at least not extensively) whereas I do. There models could be causing the problems as Col has different hardware requirements than BTS. I'm still waiting for someone that has Col and it works fine for them to give me feedback to see if Thomas' War works fine for them as well. As seen in previous posts the Col assets already required someone to update their graphics drivers were previously they've had no problems with RoM, HITM, etc.

 

[tsentom1]

Hey, I like this mod, but is there a way to turn leaderheads off? Or maybe replace them with a static picture?

The leaderheads are very well done and all, but the extradorinary download time combined with the slowness of the game deep into it kinda runs things into the negative for me.

I've already released static leaderheads, see the first post or my sig.

 

[jungmo]

First of all, let me say that this looks amazing. Well done!

I do have a problem, though. I'm not a fan of the terrain in this mod, but I'm having some trouble changing it back. Can you tell me exactly how to do this? I tried copying and pasting over the files, keeping the files with swamp and marsh in the terrain folder, but nothing seems to work - I get pink/purple colors splashed all over my lands.

Thanks!

 

[tsentom1]

First of all, let me say that this looks amazing. Well done!

I do have a problem, though. I'm not a fan of the terrain in this mod, but I'm having some trouble changing it back. Can you tell me exactly how to do this? I tried copying and pasting over the files, keeping the files with swamp and marsh in the terrain folder, but nothing seems to work - I get pink/purple colors splashed all over my lands.

Thanks!

The default Terrain Texture folder is assets/art/terrain/textures

Thomas' War doesn't change this and the files are left unpaked.

Within it only the MarshBlend and SwampBlend groups (6 files in all) you shouldn't touch. All the other files use their default names.

Deleting these other files will revert the game to the standard terrain. Moving terrain files into the folder and overwriting will switch the terrain providing the terrain you are using is using the default names for its files.

If your terrain files aren't using the default names you'll have to define them individually in the XML

 

[Mister Giggles]

"Also, directly comparing it to RoM in terms of using up resources isn't exactly a fair comparison as RoM uncompressed is around 380 - 400 MB and Thomas' War uncompressed is around 1.3 GB. Thomas' War is actually a lot more resource heavy than RoM and adding more 'stuff' even if potentially not the cause does add to the problem."

it's not quite as unfair as it seems. While Thomas' War has a much, much higher level of completely unique graphics, Rise of Mankind has slight variations on several times more units (And near that in buildings) than present in TW. Each of these must have computer resources dedicated to drawing them and maintaining them in memory. Furthermore, RoM has much more going on with the world map late game; more units, more resources, more access to those resources, and overall much more going on due to increased army numbers because of higher production and trade numbers than found in TW.

 

[tsentom1]

"Also, directly comparing it to RoM in terms of using up resources isn't exactly a fair comparison as RoM uncompressed is around 380 - 400 MB and Thomas' War uncompressed is around 1.3 GB. Thomas' War is actually a lot more resource heavy than RoM and adding more 'stuff' even if potentially not the cause does add to the problem."

it's not quite as unfair as it seems. While Thomas' War has a much, much higher level of completely unique graphics, Rise of Mankind has slight variations on several times more units (And near that in buildings) than present in TW. Each of these must have computer resources dedicated to drawing them and maintaining them in memory. Furthermore, RoM has much more going on with the world map late game; more units, more resources, more access to those resources, and overall much more going on due to increased army numbers because of higher production and trade numbers than found in TW.

That's what I was saying you can't compare the two. Looking at raw numbers doesn't draw a correct comparison either as, for example, the terrain graphics in TW are a higher texture than currently in RoM. The size of specific models matter, etc. The game doesn't just load what's on the map, it loads almost everything and keeps them partially in memory. That's why you can load a game, minimize, delete graphics files, maximize and suddenly the graphics just don't disappear in some cases. In terms of pure asset size TW does load more and keep more in partial memory. All those additional leaderheads and civs, etc. Also, additional resources count for very little in terms of the overall memory use.

 

[Mister Giggles]

Maybe so, but there is a certain quantity beats quality perception to be had in regards to RoM and TW.

Regardless...it's somewhat meaningless to do comparisons in the first place, I realize. The point is to fix TW, not to compare its resource hogness to RoM's.

 

[tsentom1]

Maybe so, but there is a certain quantity beats quality perception to be had in regards to RoM and TW.

Regardless...it's somewhat meaningless to do comparisons in the first place, I realize. The point is to fix TW, not to compare its resource hogness to RoM's.

That's what I intend to do. After talking to some other modders, specific Col assets do sometimes cause weird hiccups in BTS mods. I'm contemplating just replacing them all and seeing the difference in performance.

 

[karlkmd]

Very incredible work on this package, but i have one question that I would like someone to reply to for me. Where is the menu on the bottom of the screen that allows me to click and give units and workers etc. commands instead of using the keyboard commands? The side panel where i can contact other leaders in the lower right is also not appearing in my game. someone care to explain for me?

 

[jungmo]

That's odd, it's still not working.

There are several things that I'm worried about:

-There are only 2 marsh files, the marsh detail one is missing, yet the game works fine with the Thomas' war mod terrain.
-I have 3 files in my default terrain. Is it suppose to be like that?
-There's a "add wetlands" folder in the Public Maps folder. Anything I have to do with that?
-My BTS terrain folder has "plottexture" not "texture".

I couldn't get it to work. Any thoughts?

 

[tsentom1]

Very incredible work on this package, but i have one question that I would like someone to reply to for me. Where is the menu on the bottom of the screen that allows me to click and give units and workers etc. commands instead of using the keyboard commands? The side panel where i can contact other leaders in the lower right is also not appearing in my game. someone care to explain for me?

This is the missing interface that some people experience with mods, there's troubleshooting in the first post:

First, are you patched to at least 3.13?

Second, are you using Civcomplete? Civcomplete requires you to edit files (there's a link in the first post).

Third, sometimes simply alt-tabbing out and then back in the game can fix this.

Fourth, sometimes playing with the game installed in Vista requires you to run it as an administrator.

Finally, if none of that works you need to enable python exceptions in the civ4config file, load up the game, and post what error comes up.

 

[tsentom1]

That's odd, it's still not working.

There are several things that I'm worried about:

-There are only 2 marsh files, the marsh detail one is missing, yet the game works fine with the Thomas' war mod terrain.
-I have 3 files in my default terrain. Is it suppose to be like that?
-There's a "add wetlands" folder in the Public Maps folder. Anything I have to do with that?
-My BTS terrain folder has "plottexture" not "texture".

I couldn't get it to work. Any thoughts?

The public maps folder is unrelated to the textures and that add wetlands folder was simply my separating the mapscripts i knew needed python added to them and currently wouldn't work.

My mistake there should only be 5 files not to be replaced. Marsh Blend and Grids, Swamp Blend, Grids, Detail. (In fact you won't even notice if you delete the two Marsh files, the Swamp ones are the important ones)

Your BTS does have a texture folder... only it's in the Civ 4 folders. BTS never changed the textures so that folder is paked with the rest of the Vanilla assets in the Civ 4 folders.

I'm not sure what you mean by 3 files in your default terrain. If you're looking for the default Civ terrain you need to unpak the Civ 4 assets. Regardless, there's no need to copy and paste them in as simply erasing the same-named files will make the mod call them from the Civ 4 folders for the default textures

If in Thomas' War/Art/Terrain/Textures you delete everything but Swamp Detail, Blends, Grid. It will revert to the standard BTS terrain. There's no needs to touch files in any other location. If however the textures you wish to add are not the default ones you need to make sure they use the default names. If they don't you will need to edit the XML. If you delete the Thomas' War texture folder completely, you'd have the default terrain but pink/purple where the swamp would normally spawn.

Just a note, Thomas' War should be installed in the BTS mods directory, not the custom assets directory. This is true for almost all big mods.

 

[turingmachine]

Maybe so, but there is a certain quantity beats quality perception to be had in regards to RoM and TW.

Regardless...it's somewhat meaningless to do comparisons in the first place, I realize. The point is to fix TW, not to compare its resource hogness to RoM's.

People, there is nothing wrong with the code causing MAFs. MAFs are unrelated to that. You can fix MAFs by lowering graphics settings, switching to single units, hiding movie backgrounds, using the static leaderheads and wondermovies, playing on smaller map sizes, less players, etc.

You're just sending Thomas on a wild goose chase making him pour through his code.

Saying, well I don't MAF in RoM or HITM is completely unrelated as those are different mods and use their assets differently. Nor does saying someone has a system twice and powerful and they MAF too. That is all dependent on how many applications somebody has running in the background, how their computer uses their own personal memory, etc.

Granted the Colonization assets could be causing people to MAF who didn't before but that shouldn't be criticized. It is well known that Col needs higher system requirements than BTS. If you plan to play a mod that uses assets from it you should expect your system to meet those higher requirements.

MAFs are a problem on your end not the mod itself. The Mod is HUGE you shouldn't really expect to be playing giant world size 32 people.

Finally, this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=224178

Gives a solution to MAFs in general.

 

[Mister Giggles]

"People, there is nothing wrong with the code causing MAFs. MAFs are unrelated to that. You can fix MAFs by lowering graphics settings, switching to single units, hiding movie backgrounds, using the static leaderheads and wondermovies, playing on smaller map sizes, less players, etc."

Sir, please. Civilization IV before its first patch had constant MAF's because of a memory leak caused by bad coding. This same leak came back in Warlords. Bad programming can as easily cause MAFs as underpowered hardware. Programming that causes Civ IV to behave incorrectly with an OS (As several mods have done so in the past with Vista) causes crashes as well.

In testing I have played on low graphical settings with a minimum of things having to be rendered. I still have the crash. My machine irregardless is vastly overpowered for this game in every respect, coming in at twice the recommended specs.

I do >not< have this problem with any other mod, including Rise of Mankind on a giant map with 40+ Civilizations. The only crashes I have there is when RoM manages to burn through my physical AND virtual memory (Two gigs, then four more on top of that).

By comparison, the largest map I've played with on Thomas' War was a small map with five civilizations. The actual memory usage was hovering around, at worst, 500 megs. It came nowhere close to what would be needed to have a MAF. Since it still has them, it indicates something is wrong somewhere that is causing the game to suddenly use up all the memory or become convinced it has and close.

"You're just sending Thomas on a wild goose chase making him pour through his code."

Because something might well be wrong. Mods are not supposed to crash. It may be that nothing is wrong with what he's done, but it may be that the way he programmed something is causing gruff with my video card drivers and operating system. It's happened before with Expanded City Sizes.

"Saying, well I don't MAF in RoM or HITM is completely unrelated as those are different mods and use their assets differently. Nor does saying someone has a system twice and powerful and they MAF too. That is all dependent on how many applications somebody has running in the background, how their computer uses their own personal memory, etc."

It's based on many things beyond the mere specs of a computer. When several of them are having the exact same issue with vastly different hardware it's an indication something OTHER than user error/lack of know how/etc is involved. Frankly I'm insulted you're suggesting I don't understand my own hardware and machine well enough to make an educated guess the problem is, in the very least, not directly my fault.

"Granted the Colonization assets could be causing people to MAF who didn't before but that shouldn't be criticized. It is well known that Col needs higher system requirements than BTS. If you plan to play a mod that uses assets from it you should expect your system to meet those higher requirements.

Again, the requirements for the game are much lower than what my machine is capable of doing. Colonization is nothing compared to a fully modded Oblivion with updated graphics, for example, and I run the latter just fine.

"MAFs are a problem on your end not the mod itself. The Mod is HUGE you shouldn't really expect to be playing giant world size 32 people."

Thank you for assuming once again I'm ignorant of my own machine's abilities AND the way I played Thomas' War. Now if you wish to rethink your arguments with actual facts and not conjecture, I'll be glad to welcome it.

 

[Yngvi]

I have to agree with Mr. Giggles. My system is also far more powerful than the recommended specs. I have lowered the graphics, played with the single-figure units, used the static leaders/movies, disabled other processes, and I don't play maps larger than the huge/11 civ that is a regular part of the game. The mod still crashes.

Not that the specs can't have something to do with it with less powerful systems, but why can I play a complicated, sprawling mod like Fall from Heaven II and never have any problems at all? How "differently" can the assets be used that one MAF crashes on my system and one doesn't?