Bug: God King Civic doesn't give capital +50% commerce?

[PaleJackal]

I know there are trade routes, but commerce is gold coins, correct? If I mouse over my production in my capital, it says +50% production, but if I mouse over my research, it says base research (or commerce): 29, and my research is 29, and I counted up all my gold coins (plus capital's palace) and that's 29 coins.

So what gives? Do I need to 'produce gold' or lower my research to get the advantage? Is it just a display error? I know I'm making money each turn, and I've got 4 cities, and typically at some point you need to turn down your research... but I'm still at 100%. Of course, I've got a couple gold mines which no doubt helps.

 

[TheGreatSteve]

GK increases , not . You won't see any effect if you have no specialists and are running at 100% research.

 

[Cliftor]

I know, it was an odd terminology and graphic choice from Firaxis and it tricked me too before someone told me bout it.

Those Gold Coins you see yielded on tiles? When you work them it is NOT a 1 to 1 relationship to your Gold per turn.

From tiles, you get food, production and "commerce," not gold. Commerce is a abstracted measure of the leisure your population has to pursue Cultural and Scientific activities, and even material Wealth or Gold.

Like GreatSteve showed you, Gold and Commerce use different symbols. I know I could read the manual back when I first got Civ4, but I didn't and didn't notice the difference. But the Sliders in the upper left control all of your gross Commerce from all your worked tiles in your entire empire and what percentages are converted into Science, Culture, Gold (and in Beyond the Sword, Espionage).

So actually, if you're running at 100% research, that means 0% of your commerce is being converted to gold, and if you have any gold income at all it's probably from fixed per turn bonus sources like a religious shrine or Markets.

The confusion stems from the similar symbols (a stack of gold coins vs. a single gold coin in profile) and similar terminology (Gold and Wealth vs Commerce).

They could have used a less similar name for Commerce like Leisure (which I also personally feel is more accurate anyway), but I'm not sure what symbol they'd use then

 

[JFSebastian]

Since God King effects (gold) or sometimes called wealth and not (commerce), whats the best way to get the most out of it?

slider high
In this case it works really well if you have a Holy City with a shrine and you move the capital to that city. Spread your religion as much as possible. Market, gambling house, temple of Kilmorph. Merchants, Great Merchants, Great Prophets, Great Bards. This allows you to keep your slider up higher, since most of your (wealth) is being produced in one city.

slider low
God King also works extremely well in an economy that has its slider down low, using Ashen Veil, Elder Council's, Sages, Great Sages, etc for science. Move the capital to your highest (commerce) city and hopefully build the Deruptus Brewing House there. Also make the capital the trade center with lots of buildings. Get some good trade routes with open boarders. This allows you to produce most of your (wealth) in one city while the other cities specialize in either with sages or production.

In either case, top it off with the Bazaar of Mammon and other +% buildings.

 

[JonathanStrange]

This is interesting. I don't really understand it though. I thought I did before I read the thread but I had wondered what was up with the God King Civic before and then shrugged "Oh, well, I'm going to city states anyway."

 

[JFSebastian]

(commerce) is the basic economic unit produced by plots and trade routes. These units are then turned into either (science) or (gold/wealth) depending on where your science slider is set at. Later after you research drama, you also have the option to turn (commerce) into (culture) depending on where you set the culture slider.

 

[PaleJackal]

Thank you for the very helpful responses. =)

 

[Ranos]

Since God King effects (gold) or sometimes called wealth and not (commerce), whats the best way to get the most out of it?

slider high
In this case it works really well if you have a Holy City with a shrine and you move the capital to that city. Spread your religion as much as possible. Market, gambling house, temple of Kilmorph. Merchants, Great Merchants, Great Prophets, Great Bards. This allows you to keep your slider up higher, since most of your (wealth) is being produced in one city.

slider low
God King also works extremely well in an economy that has its slider down low, using Ashen Veil, Elder Council's, Sages, Great Sages, etc for science. Move the capital to your highest (commerce) city and hopefully build the Deruptus Brewing House there. Also make the capital the trade center with lots of buildings. Get some good trade routes with open boarders. This allows you to produce most of your (wealth) in one city while the other cities specialize in either with sages or production.

In either case, top it off with the Bazaar of Mammon and other +% buildings.

Since God King effects commerce and not gold , this is pretty much wrong.

 

[Bitwise]

Since God King effects commerce and not gold , this is pretty much wrong.

Except God King affects Gold and not Commerce as TheGreatSteve mentioned.

 

[PaleJackal]

Yeah, I double checked before my second reply, it is indeed the gold symbol rather than the commerce symbol.

And thanks, Cliftor, my positive gold per turn is probably from my Temples of Kilmorph.


To Sebastien: So the first suggestion, do I just select gold as my output? Is that even possible without a tech?

As for the second, so is your research slider based solely on commerce, then? That is, your sages will produce the same research at 100% as at 0%? That makes sense, of course, but I don't think I ever made that connection. I'm certainly not a complete newbie, but some things are quite evidently still beyond me. =)

 

[lordrune]

Here's a worked example:

Let's say a specific city gets from commerce the following:
a) trade routes totalling 12
b) worked tiles (plantations, aristo farms, gold mines, whatever) totalling 18
Giving a grand total of 30 commerce.

Now, let's say this city has in it the Brewery National wonder - with two food resources - giving +10% *commerce* - that would bring the raw total up to 36.
Now - out of this 36 - the slider is applied. Let's say you're giving 50 to money, 50 to science. That will give 18 cash, and 18 beakers.

Now - the slider and the commerce bonus is removed from the equation.

Onto this: add your merchant specialists, and your sages.
Let's say you've got no merchants, but your sages are giving you a total of 8 beakers (can't recall exactly what a sage gives, I'm just pulling a number out of the air).
If you've got an Elder Council, this will also be added at this point - let's say we do and its an additional 3.
This brings you up to 18 cash and 29 beakers.
Let's say you've got a Library, which gives IIRC +25% beakers. This adds another 7.25 - giving you a total of 36.25. AFAIK Civ will correctly store and calculate with the decimal point, even though it doesn't display it everywhere (I'd like to know if anyone's found this not to be the case).
And let's say you're also running God King and this city is your capital. This gives you +50% cash bringing you up to 27.

So 36.25 beakers would go to your research, and 27 into your treasury. Then the same sums will be done for all the other cities.

In practise, a good God King capital will preferably have priests and merchants, not sages - although you shouldn't rule sages out if you've got a good reason to run them.

If you find a Great Prophet, you're golden, because you can settle it and it will give you not +2 hammers and +5 coins, but +3 hammers and +7.5 coins Really good boost early in the game, and that's why I make sure I've got at least 50 gold in my treasury at all times in case that event comes along in the early game.


One thing to note is that, if you ignore specialists and look at the raw commerce from tiles and trade, if there's a bonus from something like the Brewery, and you've got additional bonuses coming in from buildings like the Bazaar of Mammon (+100% to coin), the bonuses will combine exponentially.
So if the Brewery gives you +30% to *commerce* from all three types of grain, and the Bazaar of Mammon gives you +100% to coin, the +100% is applied on top of the +30%, giving you +160% to your raw commerce - pretty potent eh?
But you wouldn't see the full +160% come onto your merchant and priest specialists - only the Bazaar of Mammon would apply for them.

Now let's say you've got God King - giving you +50% to *coin* as opposed to Commerce - and the Bazaar of Mammon gave you +100% to coin - the bonuses are *additional* only. So you'd get +150% to all your coin that came in from trade and tiles (post slider application) - but on the other hand you'd get the +150% to your merchants and priests (at least the money part of them) as well.

It all does make sense when you understand what it's adding up.

 

[lordrune]

Yeah, I double checked before my second reply, it is indeed the gold symbol rather than the commerce symbol.

And thanks, Cliftor, my positive gold per turn is probably from my Temples of Kilmorph.


To Sebastien: So the first suggestion, do I just select gold as my output? Is that even possible without a tech?

As for the second, so is your research slider based solely on commerce, then? That is, your sages will produce the same research at 100% as at 0%? That makes sense, of course, but I don't think I ever made that connection. I'm certainly not a complete newbie, but some things are quite evidently still beyond me. =)

Exactly. Specialists - along with elder councils and markets - will completely ignore the commerce slider. It took me a while to make the connection but it helps you understand exactly how your cities and your empire's larger economy is 'ticking' under the surface.

God King's biggest drive for me is that it's an expansion accelerant. I'll usually beeline Mysticism in every game, even if I don't start with the preceding tech - unless there's something obvious like a mining or calendar resource that's only one tech away for me to hook up.

While I'm researching this, I'll identify my second city site, and possibly start building a settler. Once I've got Mysticism - depending on the circumstances it's usually either my first, second, or third tech - I'll get an elder council built, research exploration, settle my second city, and build an elder council in there right away if possible. I think of that setup as my launching pad.

I avoid the temptation to go to City States early these days, especially if my capital city is a production powerhouse, because I want to be able to leverage that for longer. While you expand, you can leverage elder councils and markets (and you should - even if you're not running God King).

The fact that the AI doesn't really do this is a large reason that it sucks so much.

 

[Senethro]

Thats some nice methodology lordrune. Its the sort of thing I might try on a philosophical, non-financial civ thats been limited to a small number of cities. I'm not sure it would beat a fast Aristocracy though.

 

[WarKirby]

City states has it's many uses too. I think that and god king are the two best civics.

Does anyone ever use republic, actually? It seems pretty mediocre in comparison to the others.

 

[Cliftor]

As for the second, so is your research slider based solely on commerce, then? That is, your sages will produce the same research at 100% as at 0%?

Yep, your Sage super specialists (and Elder Councils and such) provide fixed per-turn +Science yields, they're not affected by the slider.

Remember that they ARE affected by +X% Science buildings, though, like a Library or Academy. Just like the Money Changer and Bazaar of Mammon provide a percentage bonus to your actual Gold/Wealth producted and not commerce.

In general, it's best to remember that Commerce only comes straight from mother earth herself- the tiles, so only improvements like Plantations and cottages affect. All other abilities, buildings, civics, bonuses and any other feature in the entire game work directly on the "end products" - culture, gold, science.

In fact, I think the only feature in the entire game that directly affects Commerce is the Financial leader trait. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Sephi]

In fact, I think the only feature in the entire game that directly affects Commerce is the Financial leader trait. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

There is something called trade routes . And there is also a national wonder that adds to commerce. Well, and the Kuriotates have some UB that increase commerce...

 

[JFSebastian]

To Sebastien: So the first suggestion, do I just select gold as my output? Is that even possible without a tech?

As for the second, so is your research slider based solely on commerce, then? That is, your sages will produce the same research at 100% as at 0%? That makes sense, of course, but I don't think I ever made that connection. I'm certainly not a complete newbie, but some things are quite evidently still beyond me. =)

The sliders always add up to 100%. For example, you start the game with the science slider at 100%, but as you start racking up support and maintenance costs, the game will lower it automatically to start paying for them. So it may lower it to 80%. That means the gold slider is at 20%. Moving one, changes the other.

It sounds like you may be missing out on some of the information the game provides. If you go into a city screen and hover the mouse over the city's gold or science output, it'll throw up a little box that gives you a run down of how those totals are calculated. For example, these screens are from a capital city, with Deruptus Brewing House, rice, elder council, library, 2 sages, & 1 mind mana.

​

At the top of the hover info is the base commerce which is the sum of your palace commerce (8), trade commerce (2) and worked tile commerce (8). In this example its boosted by 10% because of Deruptus Brewing House being present with 1 grain resource, raising it from 18 to 19.

Because the science slider is at 0%, none of this commerce gets converted into . However, there is an elder council (+2) and 2 sages (+3 each), for a total of 8. Because of the library (25%) and the mind mana (3%) this total is boosted by 28%, from 8 to 10.24.

(Note that the effects of the mind mana don't show up in the hover info, but are represented in the actual total displayed in the city screen. Hopefully that'll be fixed someday.)​

In the case of gold, because the science slider is at 0%, this forces the gold slider to be at 100%. Therefore all of the commerce gets converted into . Because this is the capital and we are running God King, it gets boosted by 50%, from 19 to 28.50.

 

[Grey Fox]

Thats some nice methodology lordrune. Its the sort of thing I might try on a philosophical, non-financial civ thats been limited to a small number of cities. I'm not sure it would beat a fast Aristocracy though.

Yeah some leaders/civ work better with this than others. Khazad has a nice chance to do this well, not to mention synergies with it extremely well.
With their extra happiness, hammers and GPP from a properly run Gold Vault, combined with God-King and priests +merchants +Holy city; you'd have an easy time getting that gold you require to keep your cities at full Gold.

If you total up the extra GPP from Arate with the one from their Full Gold Vault and if you are able, Pacificsm, you'd almost reach the same amount of boost as a philosophical leader running without pacifism. (plus, you'd have +90% Hammers in capital from Full Vault and God King!)

Other leaders to benefit from the GO(L)D King strategy would be Alexis (can't get early sage so probably better to go for Merchants or Priests). Dain, his tech path works well with sages. Settle most Sages and pop techs with some and run low slider to gain benefits from cottages or calendar resources. This will also make it easier to build the Great Library in capital, and maybe Catacomb Libralus etc.

 

[JonathanStrange]

Excellent thread, worth studying. I'm going to see how better use of God King helps me.

 

[zup]

A good god king capital runs priests and food production. Theocracy + scholarship + caste system + altar ( + hall of kings ) = win. Don't forget national epic. Victory is inevitable.