Builder, Worker and Engineer rules in Civ7

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Tile improvement constructions as utilized in Civ franchise, always uses improvement builder to do. There are some discussion items involving builders or workers.
1. Builder VS Worker. What should Civ7 tile imrovement unit building name be? (or should 'Engineer' name be used instead?)
2. Construction mechanism.
A. Pre-Civ6 improvement buildings (worker unit can build as many improvements as long as the unit lasts or resources required still available (Civ3 Railroads))
B. Civ6: buider / worker has limited construction charges but building improvements or removing terrain feature (woods or other bonus resources) costs one charge, reparings and demolishings however does not.
C. Hybrid: builder and worker can build as many improvements as long as a unit lasts AND building improvements is finished instantly.
3. Should there be separate Engineer units (not GP)?
What are 'Engineer' units? In Civ2 this unit 'replaces' settler immediately once a certain advancement is achieved, in addition to settler abilities (in Civ2, before separate settlers and workers came to be since Civ3 onwards), engineer can either convert the whole terrains (plains into grasslands, desert into planes, for example), and this unit is 'civil' engineer. In Civ6, they're part of military engineer corps or 'sappers' that not only can clear terrains but can also build/rebuild roads, forts, airstrips, and missile silos (in GS they can also lay railroad tracks and dig tunnels)
A. Yes. Regular builder/worker and engineer. (and who should build what? and who should rush construction projects?)
B. Yes. Regular builder/worker, and two separate engineers, Civil engineer and Combat engineer (and who should build what? and who should rush construction projects?)
C. No!
4. Should merhcant unit build roads on any unbuilt terrain like in Civ6?

 

[criZp]

If they are a little smart they allow building to happen from a city menu, in order to address the excessive micro clicking problem.

 

[mitsho]

Yeah, we simply do not need a builder. I‘d prefer if they could be insta-built with gold (or another yield) from the main map - or maybe also in the city building queue. Simplify, simplify, simplify.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ Actually i'm more opponent towards 'builder' units especially with many tile improvements requires own tiles. some TIs particularly with military in mind. needs to be built outside own territory too to make it useful (airstrips and forts in unclaimed tiles, or in enemy territory after a player secure the area but about to lay siege to a city (Representing trench warfare), roads and rails inside other players tile to facilitate player's movements.

 

[mitsho]

And why would you need a special unit for that? You can just place it if it's close enough to your border or if it's in control by one of your units. In the worst case, just give all military units that ability. I'm sorry, I really do not see the benefit of an extra unit outside of more clicks being necessary and a constraint / distinction for good players. But learning how to time workers/builders best is just not something fun to learn and do.

There are a limited amount of clicks a player can focus on - or rather: a limited amount that a game should have. Let's not waste a few of them on moving units around.

 

[Naokaukodem]

As I said in another topic, and that after replaying Civ5, I find the worker model of Civ5 to be more intuitive. You lack improvements ? (i.e. you work unimproved tiles) Build more workers ! And by the way, the worker game is one of the easiest to understand compared to play on Deity. You averagely need one worker per city, or a little more than that IIRC.
I wouldn't mind being able to improve tiles with city production queue however. That might work like Civ6 districts. As mitsho said, you can harvest wood or any other kind of resource by using soldiers. I would even say : population points. It would be cool that every population point have charges like builders in Civ6. Like, 3 charges per PP, independently of their promotions/specialization. One specialization could be adding more charges though, like "engineer" promotion. That would be missed opportunity for something else, but it could come in handy sometimes.
Basically you can toy with the concept of population points infinitely : you can use them to unlock techs, civics, being respectively the "scientific" and "artist" promotions, you can upgrade them into fighters, or rather "heros", because each promotion of this kind doesn't require any tech or civic and can be adopted since the start, depending on what type of faction you want to play. Knowing you may have 5 promotions to spend on your first PP on turn 2, it opens up for many options : do you beline a tech, a civic, do you create a hero that ultimately can enslave enemy units (more PP, an alternate way to "turtling" : ), do you focus on yields, and which ones : food, production from mines, or woods, animals or vegetables ?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The problem I have with separate Workers Units is two-fold:

First, they are a clumsy way of limiting the amount and number of Map Improvements you can build. Clumsy because the same effect can be obtained much more easily by simply making any such constructions dependent on some Currency already tracked in the City or Civ: Gold, Production, Culture, etc.

Second, by having to build and move separate units round the map to build anything else, they artificially extend the time required to build anything. It does not take 10 years and more to build a Farm, or a MIne or a Plantation, yet even in the late game it can take several turns from the time you decide to the time you build a Worker or move a Worker to the desired location. Then, of course, Civ VI requires that you Expend the Worker artificially so you have to build a new one. WTF?

We can have all that by making Terrain Improvements require Gold and/or Production at a varying rate that have to be expended before an Improvement can be built. You gather the resources, click on the tile, choose from a Pop-Up/Drop Down Menu of What Is Allowed On This Tile, click once and done. You will still have to plan ahead in allocating Resources to construction of Improvements versus, say, Buildings in Districts, Districts themselves, and Wonders, but we lose the artificiality of the Worker Units and the tediousness of their movement and handling and cluttering the map with artificial 'civilian' workers/units: It's no loss.

 

[Zaarin]

You will still have to plan ahead in allocating Resources to construction of Improvements versus, say, Buildings in Districts, Districts themselves, and Wonders

This is why I'm for keeping Builders: because there's already too little production to go around.

 

[civac]

A public works resource (aquired with production and/or gold) with a simple GUI for placing on the map (Civ CTP model?) is fine, old-school worker units which don't get expended are also fine. I strongly dislike the instantaneous creation of improvements in Civ6. Removes an entire dimension of planning. At that point simplicity comes at the cost of depth.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

A public works resource (aquired with production and/or gold) with a simple GUI for placing on the map (Civ CTP model?) is fine, old-school worker units which don't get expanded are also fine. I strongly dislike the instantaneous creation of improvements in Civ6. Removes an entire dimension of planning. At that point simplicity comes at the cost of depth.

There is no instantaneous anything in Civ VI. Building an Improvement requires that you first build or buy a Worker, which means you have to accumulate the Production or Gold to do so, and then you have to physically move the Worker to the desired tile. Only rarely can you do all that in a single turn. Given that even the shortest turn is 1 year, every improvement is a multi-year project, and in the ancient Era (40 years per turn on standard speed) an "instantaneous Improvement" may take centuries.

This is why I'm for keeping Builders: because there's already too little production to go around.

Then use another currency or, as suggested by @civac above, make up a new currency. You are already using Production to produce Workers in many cases, so a new system of Production to directly build Improvements is just cutting out the middle step.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

There is no instantaneous anything in Civ VI. Building an Improvement requires that you first build or buy a Worker, which means you have to accumulate the Production or Gold to do so, and then you have to physically move the Worker to the desired tile. Only rarely can you do all that in a single turn. Given that even the shortest turn is 1 year, every improvement is a multi-year project, and in the ancient Era (40 years per turn on standard speed) an "instantaneous Improvement" may take centuries.

I'm not sure whether will F'xis abandon this 'trademark' in favor of more practical tile improvement schemes.
With this if anyone remember Civ2. there were 'Infrastructure' projects available in every city once a tech is accumulated. I can't remember what actually i did but 'infrastructures' should be how 'tile improvements' is done... There's a TI quota per turn, that one city can have, that each quota equals a total production a city does per turn, divided by (think of modifiers) and this relates to number of citizens a city has.
With this it is possible that one city can have many more TI within one turn.

But these are civil affairs.

mm what about 'combat engineerings' ? where entrenchments, roads and rails buildings inside neutral or hostile territory so to represent forward base or more archaic terms... 'siege camp' and WW1 No Man's Land??

 

[dagriggstar]

To me, the simplest solution is that after x turns of a "citizen" or "population point" working a particular tile, you should get a prompt to build whatever improvement you want on that tile.

No units or production required.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

To me, the simplest solution is that after x turns of a "citizen" or "population point" working a particular tile, you should get a prompt to build whatever improvement you want on that tile.

No units or production required.

And, @Zaarin, here's your Improvement Currency: call it Labor: it would be a product of, say, amount of population in the city with Modifiers from Civs (Extra-Industrious China or India as we've seen before in the game), Leader, Government Type, Civic, Social Policy or Religious Tenet, etc.

OR, if Civ VII makes decent use of Specialists, the basic Labor point could be a product of the amount of population NOT already allotted to Specialists, giving the gamer a neat Decision trade-off between increasing the effects of Buildings/Districts with Specialists, or making Brute Force Labor available for Improvements - or Wonders.
And, another Population Sink could be Military Units - I really like Humankind's system where most military Units cost Population: that could give Civ VII a set of really critical decision-possibilities as you try to balance Specialists, Labor, and Military in your Cities.