1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Building Everything is Probably Wrong, Right? (Warmongerholic)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by nmb93, Feb 12, 2020.

  1. nmb93

    nmb93 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2019
    Messages:
    39
    (I've burdened the QuickQ/QuickA with my rambling a few times now and halfway through typing this up realized I was doing it again.)

    So I'm quite sure I'm managing my cities totally wrong and have a few questions. Answers to some, all, none, or referrals to relevant threads are all welcome. Most of what I've found dates back to the July stable patch or before, which in light of the happiness rework makes them less relevant.

    For context, I play exclusively domination on immortal epic speed, Rome is my favorite (that UA) but I've played Sweden, Songhai, and England to completion or crash recently. With January/December betas I've been able to pretty consistently stay right above the 50% line plus or minus ~5%. Authority + Fealty + Imperialism + Autocracy like clockwork.

    1. Can running city projects (say culture after winning worlds fair) permanently screw up happiness expectations?

    2. Guilds. 1 of each in cap. Then spread among my best cities, 1 per city. Good/bad/ugly?

    3. I've started using avoid growth in cities that will never be particularly strong long term. Or until industrial+ buildings can catch them up. I used to production focus them. Is one approach better/worse/do they both suck?

    4. Is locking tiles/specialists the magic key I'm missing? I toy with it in specific circumstances but otherwise it seems like default is making the best decisions happiness wise 9/10 times.

    5. Public works. So. Much. Public. Works. As soon as I unlock it, it's the next thing I queue. Then late game it gets added to the queue every time I visit and queue spam a non-core city. Is there some specific pop number I would have been better off just keeping peripheral cities at?

    6. To the titular question, I build everything everywhere eventually. That's half of why my preferred corporation is Firaxite Materials. Is there a point before that where I should leave them on projects?

    7. Building selection algorithm by mid game: Super cheap buildings > Happiness specific demands > production increasing buildings > units.

    Hopefully some of those end up being the 'right' questions. I've just seen many comments about never building X building, or public works, or 100% happiness being remotely attainable...
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  2. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,651
    Location:
    Beijing
    1. Maybe? IDK, I often run culture or science processes and I don't usually see happiness problems. Diplomatic units are also a good thing to build.

    2. Good.

    3. I use avoid growth sometimes. If your city just had bad tiles it makes sense. But generally my first move is to work more specialists/mines.

    4. Locking tiles will improve your game, but it takes time. Usually I lock in all cities all the time for the first 100 or so turns. Later on I'll trust the city to do tiles, but I always manage specialists myself.

    5. Grow less and work more production by locking tiles. Mines are a really good tile in classical-medieval eras. Focus on building stuff, then grow more after the grocer is built.

    6. I build most things in most cities. Military bases/arsenals/castles can be skipped in some cities (I still do walls though). You should plan which cities get an agribusiness. Sometimes I skip wire services, if I have few CS allies. Grocers and medical labs can be skipped in cities with low potential. Museums are a low priority unless you want a culture victory. Sometimes I have cities that can build harbors/lighthouses but I skip them because it works very few coastal tiles.

    7. Don't just build the cheapest thing first. Think about what you need and what gives the most yields for its cost. Build orders should be a little bit different for different cities based on their terrain.
     
    nmb93, Maxxim69, ASCII Guy and 3 others like this.
  3. Delvemor

    Delvemor Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2020
    Messages:
    14
    Gender:
    Male
    I also play on Immortal but mostly peaceful wide with Progress opener, though I will eventually get involved on a territorial war in the early game anyway.

    1. I never tried maximizing World's Fair effect that way, but I do use the city projects if I want to unlock a social policy or a tech as fast as possible, or to quickly upgrade units up to date.

    2. I put one Guild of each in the capital, and then only one on any other city with both a high population and good happiness, next to a river preferably for a bath. That way boredom is minimized and all cities can grow at a reasonable pace . I also have a city without guild which will focus on great diplomats, unless I'm going for diplomatic victory, in which case it will be the capital.

    3. and 4. I never try to avoid growth unless my happiness is about to get below 50%. I don't use any focus function (the governor). Locking tiles/specialists is part of the fun for me and is clearly a magic key to avoid diminishing returns. The governor will do a good job in the early game, not so much after that. I prioritize lumbermills triangles and villages on roads over farm triangles. I will work a farm only if the result is a much faster growth, but at the same time I like to maintain WLTKD effect as much as possible, especially in the capital. I also make sure to work any newly improved tiles as soon as possible.

    5. The only times I use public works is if I open with Authority once in a while. My experience is that it does help significantly in the short term but you will still have to make that city catch up regardless, at least with an internal trade route for production.

    6. I don't build everything everywhere because of diminishing returns. I will most likely use a city project at some point before building everything, until a good building is available.

    7. Production (I will often rush it with gold) > Growth if happy/Needs if unhappy > military buildings and then units if in a big war > cheap buildings > city projects or units
     
    nmb93 and JamesNinelives like this.
  4. Delvemor

    Delvemor Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2020
    Messages:
    14
    Gender:
    Male
    I agree with that. Other buildings you can probably skip are gardens in any city not working many specialists or the tiles buffed by it, and constabularies if you're behind in techs and no AI is currently spying on you.
     
    nmb93, JamesNinelives and CrazyG like this.
  5. nmb93

    nmb93 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2019
    Messages:
    39
    CrazyG - Great tips. I think locking mines kills two birds with one stone so I'll definitely start doing that. I think skipping the arsenal+ makes sense but castles can get buffed various ways and be worth it. And I think skipping later culture buildings in non-core cities can work especially well if they're destined to work the culture project and thus compensate for their boredom. Lastly, ehh, if there's 1-2 turn buildings, why not knock them out? That only really happens late game so it is rarely relevant to building selection.

    Delvemor - We've got the same strat with guilds + diplo city. With locking specialists, I guess my other hesitation is then be committed to indefinitely? Like I wish I could lock some specialists but the governor would still be able to assign others. I'm definitely going to give a try in my next few games and see if it's worth keeping up with every new pop that's born by the end of the game. Interesting regarding public works you mention authority, I really need to try a progress domination game and see if that ends up being worth it mid/late game. +1 movement to workers alone sounds like a MASSIVE QoL improvement.

    Thanks all!
     
  6. Delvemor

    Delvemor Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2020
    Messages:
    14
    Gender:
    Male
    Regarding locking tiles, I might be a bit contradictory. I said the governor generally does a good job in the early job and it's mostly true, but at the same time I will always lock tiles if I'm building a settler because it's often possible to train him in the same number of turns the governor would allow it, but with +2 gold per turn for example. Min-maxing in the early game makes a big difference, but not so much in the late game. You will often grow the city and build something important in the same number of turns no matter what you do. What I can definitely say though is the governor tends to overlook some very good tiles, such as academies and holy sites depending on which focus you use. I would suggest to at least lock these tiles (unless you're building a wonder) and the governor will probably handle the farms, mines and such just fine.

    I really got used to +1 movement for civilian units, but the self-healing on kills for melee units is also QoL for a warmonger, especially for naval combat.
     
    nmb93 and Heinz_Guderian like this.
  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,659
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    You don't have to build everything. Just look at what your options are.

    1. Build a building. So, what gives? How long will it take to return the investment?

    2. Produce a unit. Maybe your army is obsolete, maybe your army is too small? You might want to produce a few units just to help a friend. Gifting units improve relationships and makes your friends safer.

    3. Produce diplomats. Alliances with too many city states will annoy the other players, but city state friendship comes with benefits and little cost. Try to be friends with any city state you don't need to bully.

    4. Projects. Take a look to your research and culture trees. See what goodies you can get from next tech or policy. Are they better than what your best building in queue can provide? Also consider that advancing towards next era will lower building costs. Especially consider how many turns you do expect the game to end. Sometimes there's no material time for a building to be profitable.

    5. Other units. Archeologists and trade units might take preference unless you are at war.

    After considering all options, you might find that unless your production is night or you have bonuses toward building construction, you will not have enough time to build everything.
     
    nmb93, Maxxim69 and Zarggg like this.
  8. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,051
    This thread made me think about something - and maybe others could give me feedback about whether this is worthwhile or would require another thread.

    Rather than just discussing whether one should build everything, we could also raise the question of whether all general buildings should even be available in the first place. Late in the game, we have certain Wonders and National Wonders that are particular to certain ideologies - why not add additional specificity to *certain things* (but not everything, as we don't want to force anyone down a particular path too strikingly) throughout the ages both for buildings and National Wonders? For example... (Possibly bad examples, but it will make the point)

    Heroic Epic - Not available to Civilizations who have picked Progress

    National Monument - Not available to Civilizations who have picked Authority

    Circus Maximus - Not available to Civilizations who have picked Tradition


    Other items like Gardens, Hotels, Zoos, Museums, Hospitals, and a few other buildings certainly fit into the "optional" zone and could interestingly be exclusive/inclusive to particular policy paths. This, to an extent, would limit all that would need to be built as it would not ll be available due to a player's choices.

    Thoughts?
     
    vyyt, Arthur Jama and nmb93 like this.
  9. nmb93

    nmb93 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2019
    Messages:
    39
    Locking national wonders would have pretty far reaching balance effects, between their building buffs and needs reductions I imagine they'd be sorely missed. But I think it could be interesting to have the openers of the second and/or third sets of policy trees unlock some basic buildings. Zoos from imperialism or windmills from industry perhaps? Maybe couple that with a policy rebalance where you can expect to finish three trees + 3 (so an extra opener per set)...because who doesn't love power creep!!!
     
  10. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,051
    I don't get why Imperialism would unlock Zoos, but Windmills for Industry makes sense for sure. To be sure - we already have the Observatory unlock connected to a policy in Rationalism, so it's not like the idea is novel.


    If I were to pick items for the Ancient era though, having Barracks locked to Authority only would make sense (it needs the 1 Science over the others, and 10 XP is not game-breaking - and moreover, it's actually nice to see more units of lower levels). Sadly I can't think of something to exclude for the other two...
     
  11. Delvemor

    Delvemor Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2020
    Messages:
    14
    Gender:
    Male
    Most of the buildings and National Wonders you mention here are already involved in the balance between the different policy paths or ideologies, since they are buffed or not depending on these choices. If anything, removing these core buildings would increase the imbalance problems and it could potentially remove some of the benefits you gain from your religion buffing some buildings you can't build. I'm not against specificity though but I prefer terrain specificity and I play with mods adding buildings which can only be built in rare situations, such as a qanat for a city on or next to desert or a polar station for a city on or next to snow.

    I have to confirm Heroic Epic not being available for Progress as a bad example, but you would probably agree.
     
  12. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,051
    The reason I picked that one was something like this:

    Authority - Duh.

    Tradition - Is focusing on small empires and badly needs that 10% bonus however it can get it.

    Progress - Can be engaged in wars, but is the most likely Civ to build units in many places rather than just the Capital.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  13. nmb93

    nmb93 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2019
    Messages:
    39
    Re: zoos, I was really just thinking thematically. Imperialist empires capturing exotic animals from their colonies. Either way, I'm still not sold on nat wonder locking but trimming the buildings list is appealing.
     

Share This Page