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Building Line Idea: Hangman's Gallows

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by BonafideDog, Aug 13, 2020.

  1. BonafideDog

    BonafideDog Chieftain

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    I've noticed that during the late game one of the biggest challenges is managing the unhappiness of your settlements as your tax rate increases. While I know that the increasing difficulty of managing your colonists' happiness and the increasing tax rate is designed to motivate you to prepare for a revolution, in some games I feel overwhelmed by all of my cities beginning to riot before I can even summon the resources to deal with it.

    Just last game I had to accept the tax increases up to 24% because the alternative would've been the "Kalona Gold Party" or the "Numnutz Silver Party". Losing the ability to trade either of those resources would have crippled me just as much as the increasing unhappiness did. Now this wasn't my best game, but I was essentially trapped as all of my cities were in constant revolt and couldn't produce any goods or build anything, ergo I couldn't sell anything and didn't have money to rush happiness buildings.

    One idea I have to give the player a little more breathing room in this situation is implementing a gallows (or guillotine for the French) building that would maybe give the passive effect of increasing the time between riots at the tradeoff of slightly less productivity in a settlement?

    I'm pretty sure there would have to be a slight downside to prevent abuse, but anything that keeps my colonists from rioting every other turn would help a lot.
     
    Ramstormp likes this.
  2. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Yippie, Happiness / Unhappiness does exactly what I wanted to achieve! :)
    It causes you to make difficult decisions especially in midgame to endgame.

    The strange thing is, that other (experienced) players reported me the exact contrary ... :confused:
    They said it was too easy to get really high Happiness in late game.

    ------

    Happiness is supposed to be a little bit challenging.
    (Maybe however details in balancing e.g. effect of taxes need to be improved.)

    But seriously, I never had problems with it. (But I usually try to keep my taxes really low.)
    You need to consider Happiness in your play style a bit though. (Buildings, Professions, Diplomacy, Domestic Market ...)

    And really all "experienced players" I had conctact with complained, that I balanced it too nicely and it was not challenging enough
    - especially in endgame when you have many Buildings, high Production of Bell / Crosses / Culture / Health, good running Domestic Market, ...

    My current guess is:

    A) You simply did not care about that feature enough (in early game) or you did not fully understand the feature mechanics yet.
    (So maybe check Colopedia or the forum thread on Happiness again.)

    B) I need to improve balancing of Unhappiness from Taxes.
    (Most likely only for small undeveloped settlements.)

    ----

    New Players often tend to play WTP like Vanilla. This will not work.
    WTP is a completely different beast with much more complexity and more features you need to consider.

    You - as Human Player - are expected to setup strategies that will bring you from early game to end game.
    (Too many wrong decisions in early game can ruin your late game.)

    WTP does have a learning curve.
    It is not supposed to be an easy piece of cake without learning its rules.

    ------

    Considering tax increases:

    Well, declining tax increases - e.g. if they are really outrageously high - is sometimes necessary.
    WTP was not designed to always accept tax increases.

    But there is e.g. still Port Royal !
    (It is not necessary to always ship to Europe.)

    Simply start shiping your boycotted goods to Port Royal.
    For Port Royal however you will e.g. need Privateers or Smuggling Ships to sail there.

    Or you can decline the increase and later lift the boycott - by paying the fine.

    ------

    Adding new Special Buildings is difficult. :think:
    Reason: The Colony Screen - Building Section - is really packed.

    ------

    @BonafideDog

    Maybe however the impact of taxes on Unhappiness is really too high.
    (I could rebalance that specific aspect though.)

    It might also depend a lot if you play tall or wide.
    (Fewer very big developed cities - or many undeveloped small cities.)

    It might also depend on playing with 1-Plot-City-Radius or 2-Plot-City-Radius.
    (I absolutely only balance features for playing with 2-Plot-City-Radius.)

    ------

    To check and maybe adjust balancing I need real data.
    (At the moment I can not give a good answer with the infos I have from you.)
    • Maybe I really need to adjust tax penalty (causing Unhappiness).
    • Or you just missed to build appropriate buildings or did not use Domestic Market or ... enough.
    • Or you expanded too wide instead of cultivating your cities first.
    • Or you used 1-Plot-City-Radius which I do not balance for.
    • Or you just accepted too many tax requests instead of refusing and lifting boycotts or using Port Royal
    • ...

    Please send me Screenshot, so I can check why your cities are so unhappy. :thumbsup:
    (I need Screenshots from Mouse-Over the Happiness Icon and Unhappiness Icon - in CityScreen - to see what causes them.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2020
  3. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    General Comment:

    Please do not expect WTP to play like Vanilla.
    It is basically a new game that just reuses parts of Vanilla.

    Please also try to consider objectively first if it is the mod is being unfair (e.g. by wrong balancing)
    or if your strategy and decisions were simply bad (by ignoring critical features or overexpanding).

    1. Mod being unfair --> we need to improve / correct the mod
    2. Bad strategy / bad decisions --> the mod does exactly what it should

    So yes, maybe balancing (of tax impacts creating Unhappiness) needs to be corrected.
    (Maybe however it is perfectly fine.)

    Without data from Screenshots, I can not check that.
    I might also need more feedback from other players.

    ----

    WTP is much more complex and much more about strategic decisions and choices.
    You will need to think more and learn the new rules and understand the new features the mod offers.

    Many of the features are connected to each other - e.g. Domestic Market and Happiness.
    Ignoring one of these features too much, will impact the connected features.

    Wrong decisions and strategies in early game can have a big impact in mid- and late game.
    (e.g. neglecting Happiness or expanding too wide)

    WTP does have a learning curve, but Colopedia and forum do offer help.
    It will take a bit of time, but once you master it, it is also a bit of an achievement. :)

    I completely opose implementing "cheats for Humans" to avoid learning these new rules. :nono:
    But if my balancing is messed up, I am of course willing to improve it. :thumbsup:

    ----

    The funny problem we have:
    (Mainly because we get more new players recently - that are not used to all RaR / WTP rules.)

    Experienced Players:
    "WTP is still too easy, give me more complex features and more challenge."

    Beginner Players:
    "WTP is too difficult, give me more workarounds for Humans to make the game easier and failures less punishing."
    (Many of these "workarounds" are often almost "cheats" that simply allow to ignore core rules of the mod.)

    So who should we make happy now?
    We try to keep it in balance - but is not possible to make both focus groups 100% happy.

    It is also not possible to make every feature "optional".
    Otherwise our efforts would explode and gameplay of the mod would be heavily damaged.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2020
  4. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    @BonafideDog

    Maybe the solution to your problem is extremely simple. :)
    The max Unhappiness from Taxes (in a city) could be limited to population size (of that city).

    This should already solve "too high Unhappiness from Taxes in small undeveloped cities".
    (For players that expand really wide very fast instead of slowly cultivating their cities.)

    But Uhhappiness from taxes will still affect the big developed cities normally as it is supposed to.
    (Because in these cities you have lots of possiblities to counter Unhappiness.)

    I will check the code and improve as necessary. :thumbsup:

    Edit:

    It is implemented now like suggested in this post. :)
    (Will be published with next release.)

    And yes, it was a balancing issue for small undeveloped cities in late game (when your tax rate might be higher).
    Thanks for reporting and making me think. :thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2020

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