1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Building Review

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jan 24, 2018.

  1. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,876
    Location:
    Beijing
    For a long time you couldn't even build herbalists in all cities, yet no one else has found issue with this science. The policy is fine
    Stoneworks are pretty situational, have been forever, I don't see a sudden major issues (it was still situational when it buffed forests too). We could just ban herbalist without jungle, but now you are being foolish. If it needs to be banned, just don't build it (how is this not a solution?) If I recall correctly, we cannot have herbalist dependent on jungle or plantation, which is why its just available everywhere.
     
    vyyt, ElliotS and Gokudo01 like this.
  2. Gokudo01

    Gokudo01 Emperor

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,043
    Location:
    Toulouse(France)
    I don't think you need to increase the yields they provide but you could definitely reduce the hammer costs.

    About Agribusiness, gazebo said that he changed the growth formula in order to compensate but I feel like I don't get the result that I got before with AB.
    Moreover coastal cities were hit by this shift of power but didn't receive compensations. And we don't all play on pangea. for example, i never play on pangea and my coastal cities go from 33 to 50% of my empire.

    about modern/atomic/information buildings, many are not really worth and don't have much impact. I'm fine with that. it leaves the choice to build them or armies.
    But the hammer cost are too high for any average city. Outside of the capital/holycity and industrial cities ( lots of mines) , you will have some issues to build them under 10 turn
     
  3. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,876
    Location:
    Beijing
    Currently all buildings in a tech column have the same costs. So it would break consistency to drop the hammer cost of a workshop, unless other buildings in that column were also changed
     
  4. Gokudo01

    Gokudo01 Emperor

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,043
    Location:
    Toulouse(France)
    right, but sometimes you have to make hard choices between yield inflation, balance and consistency. at the end of the day, if you didn't choose balance over inflation or consistency, it's not a problem but you did choose while knowing there is an underlying issue.
     
    vyyt and CrazyG like this.
  5. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,876
    Location:
    Beijing
    I suppose. Couldn't we just help the workshop by giving it some base hammers?
     
  6. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,820
    Location:
    Lebanon
    Issues come on a spectrum. It was slightly problematic before but tolerable because forests/jungles are literally everywhere with the exception of Deserts. The policy isn't fine, and calling people foolish because you refuse to acknowledge how uniquely flawed Herbalist is as as an ancient tier 2 non-prerequisite policy-affiliated building doesn't make your point look better.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,876
    Location:
    Beijing
    Just to be clear, the "major issue" is that you the option to build a building but its a bad idea? Because everything being about a niche buliding in ancient era applies to the stoneworks too (probably more so), but apparently its fine because it cannot be build sometimes.

    The policy is fine, its been fine for a year. If being tied to a niche building was an issue, why wasn't it an issue till now?
     
    Gokudo01 and ElliotS like this.
  8. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,820
    Location:
    Lebanon
    Please explain how Stone Works could possibly ever be less niche than Herbalist when Stone works could only be constructed if you actually have a resource nearby? You literally can always benefit somewhat from its construction.

    The fact of the matter is that Stone Works is not affiliated to any policy so your decision to construct it is only based on its OWN value.

    Herbalist is tied to a policy, one that gives an important yield at at a time when individual yields matter far more. A policy which you must choose in order to advance to further polices. It's also tied to a pantheon AND a wonder.

    Even Mausoleum's free Stone Works, while possibly providing only +1 production, STILL enables you to send production trade routes. There is some advantage to it. There is literally nothing for Herbalist.

    The policy was fine before changes. Changes were made very recently. Now it's no longer fine because a building it was attached to was changed. Therefore the building cannot be TOO niche because it is part of actual decisions beyond its own construction.

    Its nicheness adds to the decision-making in a relatively unique manner at a time when individual buildings and yields are far more important than later eras.

    There are two solutions here. Change the building a bit or change the policy.

    Maybe make herbalist only be available for construction in cities with a jungle or plantation. That way we can finally treat it like all other niche buildings. Would make the problematic nature of the policy more evident.
     
  9. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,970
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    I don't think the problem is the herbalist per se, but that forest are now too weak. Food on forest from herbalist was a bad idea. It's removed, right. But now forests are weak.
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  10. Paramecium

    Paramecium Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    Messages:
    330
    Isnt the problem, that the herbalist got changed just recently but noone has thought about the social policy of tradition? Herbalist and workshops are very niche atm and I am still unsure what to do with jungles and forests atm. Still in a game testing stuff, so I cant say it yet, but in most cases I build herbalists just when a CS quest pops up and it only takes about 1 or 2 turns ...
     
  11. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,876
    Location:
    Beijing
    Agreed.
    First of all, code.

    Second of all,
    Lets say you have a sitation where most of your cities are in jungle, so you take Goddess of Renewal. But later on, you have a city which doesn't have jungle, or a plantation. You can still want a herbalist in this city, because you want faith. Under this suggestion, you couldn't build it.

    What is your suggestion for this tradition policy? The bulk of the policy is the building it gives the capital. I've played a lot of tradition and never felt bad about missing this science in a few cities, I think you are overthinking it.

    "Hey there, building a herbalist is a really bad idea in this city."
    "Oh it is. Guess I won't build it. Instead I'll build something else."
    I still don't see what issue remains. Don't build bad buildings. You don't need the game to stop you from building bad buildings
     
  12. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,715
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicago
    Why would you want to take away the option to build it? That's like asking for safety scissors because you can't be trusted with big boy scissors.

    This crusade against the herbalist is ridiculous. Forests are weaker than before, that's fine. Herbalist is weaker than before, that's fine. Don't build herbalist if it's bad. Chop forests if they're bad. These things being weaker just mean you have to play different. To me it sounds like you just don't want to change your playstyle.

    I think you guys are too used to not chopping forests for long term benefits. I think forests are fine now, with them being relatively weak. It encourages deforestation, which previously wasn't needed, ever.

    There are still situations where I keep forests, they're also really strong out of the gate.

    I think they're in a good place balance-wise.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  13. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,820
    Location:
    Lebanon
    This isn't about forests. This is about Herbalist. Specifically, this is about Herbalist's liability as part of a policy tree. It's a pretty significant issue.

    If you take Tradition and have 4 cities, the science from Herbalist would amount to +4 science out of a potential 11 science if you cant work the specialist or 14 science if you can. That's approximately 33% of the policy's value gone to waste if you don't build a Herbalist because you started off in a non-jungle area with non-plantation luxes. That will only increase the more cities you get. So you feel you have to build Herbalist to benefit from the policy, even if it ultimately does little.

    This is an awkward interaction between a policy and a building, and I don't think it can be dismissed as "don't build it" when this is an ancient era policy/building where individual yields matter more than ever. We also have to recognize that many people will build it because they feel compelled to, even if it is mathematically disadvantageous.

    No need to return food to forests or whatever if that's what you're implying. Just either remove Herbalist from the policy so that a very niche building can stay just as it is, or make Herbalist a bit more worthwhile so it doesn't come at an opportunity cost. I think the former is the easier solution, although the latter would address additional awkwardness with forest renewal pantheon and artemis free building.

    As for the comment on big boy scissors, why isn't every building available even if you don't have the required resources? It's being treated inconsistently. I believe it used to be restricted but Gazebo removed it at some point. Maybe it's time to bring it back.

    Herbalist has changed. It used to be much more versatile when it included Forests. Now it's more niche. As a result, other things have to change, namely the policy itself and the acknowledgement that a niche building needs to be made more consistent with other resource niche buildings.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
    Tantro likes this.
  14. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,715
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicago
    I couldn't disagree more. I do not believe it's an issue.
    You have 3 good choices:
    1. Settle in a better area where you DO want herbalist.
    2. Go another policy branch.
    3. Choose not to build it.
    The fact is that every policy branch is NOT equally viable in every situation. Changing you settling strategy or policy choices based on gameplay factors is the name of the game. And if tradition is the best branch for you despite losing 30% of the power of one of it's 6 policies then I guess it's not a big deal. Complaining that you can't play connect the dots with this policy is just silly.
    Yes it can. Ancient era every yield matters. So build the best buildings first. This building being worse means you potentially go after other buildings. Tradition isn't terrible now. Herbalist isn't terrible now. I'm happy to use both when the situation calls for it, which is not very niche at all.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  15. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,820
    Location:
    Lebanon
    These are not solutions. These are avoiding the problem. No other ancient era policy has a similar prerequisite (unless you play Authority with zero barbarians but that's a pre-game choice). Tradition is already limited enough as it is.
     
  16. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,820
    Location:
    Lebanon
    It would be nice for people to not dismiss issues by quoting their relevance to the overall picture as if that has never applied to anything else being discussed. Yes you can not build Herbalist. You can also not build Agribusiness, Farms, Pastures, Quarries, Castles... That's not how balance considerations have ever worked in any game. Individual contribution does matter, especially when there are a lot of dependencies attached to it.

    ... but I think I've said my piece :D
     
  17. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

    Joined:
    May 2, 2013
    Messages:
    1,153
    I was going to point out that policy trees also have +% food only to realize upon closer inspection that they have +% growth instead (Rationalism and Tradition have these). I believe the way the math works out, the integer increases in food don't really benefit more than the +% food increases in food so the new AB does NOT benefit more from +% growth as far as I know (someone correct me if I'm misunderstanding this). The only other thing I would point out is that Temple of Artemis still has +%food (not sure if another wonder might that I'm forgetting). I can't remember the mechanics of WLTKD but I thought it has a growth mechanic to it that might be +% food based?

    But overall I think your conclusion that the new AG is weaker than the old AG is correct in general now that I have also looked closer at it.
     
  18. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,056
    Some clarification: you can build a stone works in cities with any quarry, but some resources like Amber and Lapis don't gain any benefit from it.
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  19. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,851
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    What part of 'there's no code to restrict buildings by local improvements' isn't clear, though? We used to have it linked to Jungle/Forest only requirement, but I removed that when we started tinkering with the plantation. Not all plantations are near forest/jungle, thus the issue.

    The fact that the building exists does not compel you to build it.

    G
     
    CrazyG and ElliotS like this.
  20. IcyAngel

    IcyAngel Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    534
    I think it's a big replayability positive to have an increased number of situational buildings -like the new herbalist and agribusiness-; it also slows down the game quite nicely.
     
    vyyt and CrazyG like this.

Share This Page