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Building Review

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jan 24, 2018.

  1. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    But the fact that it exists as part of a policy does.

    It's not even just about compelling the player. It's legitimately confusing in terms of gameplay. Why is a ancient era policy promoting a niche building? Is there any other comparable building? I don't see any. Won't some players build it, oblivious to the fact that it's actually setting them back?

    Revisit the policy then if it suits you better. I just don't think having a policy be at reduced effectiveness because a building is niche is fair to the player, particularly one in ancient, and especially after it became problematic due to very recent design decisions with regards to forests.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  2. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    Fealty gives a bonus for pastures. Is that fair to players who start in jungles?
     
  3. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    Pastures are improvements not buildings so the comparison is hardly apt.

    You lose value from the policy by not having pastures but there is no active decision to be made because you don't have pastures. On the other hand, to gain value from herbalist science you need to actually construct it.

    A better comparison would be to the castles from Fealty, but you can build castles and gain maximum value everywhere.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  4. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Policies don't need to offer the exact same yields each game to be balanced... Otherwise Authority would be worthless because you can't always kill the same amount of barbarians and/or clear the same amount of camps.

    If Herbalists are bad in a town don't build them. If they're still bad after being buffed by a policy still don't build them. It was nerfed for a reason, and I like it's current place.
     
  5. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    It seems to compel you specifically, but not anyone else. Also earlier you said that the herbalist bonus was 33% of the policies bonus? If you believe so you should reevaluate how you play tradition.

    Edit- Offer an alternative policy if you want to be taken seriously
     
  6. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but is one of your arguments that players shouldn't have to make a decision as to whether or not to build the herbalist?
     
  7. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    Not sure if that's relevant. Tradition's variance should be the amount of specialists you can work not the number of buildings you can construct. The fact that Tradition has low production works against it in this case.

    Again don't need to touch Herbalist. Change the policy if that's better.
     
  8. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    Literally 4 posters in this thread. "No one else" is an exaggeration to say the least.

    My argument has been purely qualitative. A niche building shouldn't be part of early game policies because constructing it isn't just a matter of its own utility but the policy as well.

    And yes herbalist science would account for a significant portion of the policy's value. In only 4 cities, you would generate 4 science from the Herbalists from an aggregate of 4 + 4 + 3 + 3 science if you work the specialist. That's 4/14 ~= 30%. Without the specialist, even more at ~36%. The more cities you add, the more its value increases.
     
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    If that's your stance, could you make a new thread talking about policy balance please. This thread is focused on the buildings. So if the building is fine, then nothing more for this thread:)
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  10. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    It never was a problem before. It's a policy that enhances many things. Also, baths, than need fresh water. What if you don't have fresh water, or you prefer to settle over hills without fresh water? You will be missing much more than what you claim that is a big problem with the herbalist.
    If you think the +1 science upon entering medieval on herbalists is good in a tall civ, then try to settle near forests or plantations. Unless, as G says, you can build it without restrictions. But I won't claim that it's too good when you expand. Do you expand too much in medieval when going tradition? Really?
     
  11. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    A lot of buildings have no decision-making because they are part of prerequisite buildings that are necessary.

    The ones that are not part of prerequsities are what we refer to as niche buildings. They are typically buildings that you build in some cities because their value is based on what it can provide for that city. In most cases, they are also only activated if you already can benefit from them beyond their base yields.

    When you have a policy that adds a yield to this niche building, now you have a second dimension. You're not just basing the value off of the building but the policy as well.

    So the decision is muddled. Now you not only have to decide whether the building is worth it, but if making use of the policy as well.

    For an Ancient era tree and building, this is in unique position.
     
  12. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Fine. The only building we think needs a look is workshop/windmill. It's not bad, but can be better.
     
  13. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    Actually my stance was originally that the building should be modified because its value is not only attached to a policy, but a pantheon (Renewal) and a wonder (Artemis) as well.

    The policy is just the easier change. I would prefer the building but w/e
     
  14. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    *sigh* It wasn't a problem because Herbalist wasn't nowhere as niche. Removing Forests practically gutted it as Forests are more widespread than Jungle and cover more terrain types.

    Baths would be a good argument, but in this case you have more opportunities to actually make use of it. In this case you are deciding whether fresh water settlement is worth it. The culture is part of the tradeoff you choose. There is no choice in Herbalist, because you cannot choose to settle near plantations and jungles when they aren't near you unless you plan on settling somewhere very distant...

    And how are four cities excessive expansion for Tradition? That's probably on the low end for someone playing a non-Standard sized map too lol
     
  15. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    So, will you pay the hammers and maintaining 4 golds for 4 science in your small empire of 4 cities? Cause there's plenty of other useful buildings by the time. And when I'm feeling like building herbalist, it does very little to me, and there are other even more interesting buildings.
    I would only build it when there are jugles&plantations. now. If it were to grant gold on forests, then I'll build it more often, but not much more.
     
  16. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Well its been that way for I think 2 years and no one else has complained. I think most players of most strategy games get the concept of "don't do something if its a bad idea".
    Your posts are very negative because they are complaint focused. "This policy is wrong, shouldn't buff a niche building". Okay, well let's be constructive. What should replace the herbalist science? I've looked over all the ancient era buildings, and I don't like any replacement options. I'll listen to suggestions, but if you don't have one please just stop.
    Just FYI, if you think this approach is accurate, Tradition is by far, objectively the worst policy tree. It delivers far fewer yields than the other trees do. Being able to produce great people before anyone else is a big part of the value, having one more scientist than progress or authority is a huge advantage all game long. I'd say its like 5% of the policies value (I play tradition a ton and sometimes forget that its there, because its not that important).
    You cannot choose to settle near freshwater when it isn't near you unless you plan on settling somewhere very distant....
     
  17. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    Negative? What? I've only ever expressed that a niche building's nicheness should be wholly dependent on its own value and not that of policies. Otherwise it can't be compared to other niche buildings.

    And this isn't a discussion about scaling. You can also argue that the build cost of Herbalist becomes immaterial later on in the game so you can just build it yolo. The point is that the individual yield matters more in Ancient. And I provided a reason for the value I give. You saying 5% is just bringing it out of nowhere.

    And seriously... you are infinitely more likely to spawn near sources of fresh water than you are to spawn near plantations/jungles unless you are playing a very dry map. That's a very facetious argument.

    As for a replacement, that's what the discussion is all about... bringing up the issue which has only been shut down with one argument in "don't build it lol" as if that doesn't apply to any other building that can be discussed in this thread.

    If you want here are some suggestions to make it less punishing:

    • Increase food to 2. At least then the net yield isn't potentially 0.
    • Remove maintenance (same as above).
    • Make the policy reduce construction costs by a certain %.
    • Move science bonus to library and increase it to compensate.
    Now you don't have a building as part of a policy that can produce something as low as +1 food and -1 gold ONLY. Even Stone Works (another niche-ass building) is independent of policies and provides internal production.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  18. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    K I think we've approached :trade: arguments. I'll bow out :c5faith:
     
  19. MidnightAfterglow

    MidnightAfterglow Chieftain

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    I have a proposal for Herbalist to make it slightly less niche without being as broken as it was before the nerf. Instead of giving +yields/forest, why not give the building itself a conditional bonus:

    +3:c5food: if at least 1 forest is present within 3 tiles of the city. (otherwise +1:c5food:)

    Thoughts?
    Seems like a happy middle ground that will ensure players will not abstain from chopping forests as they did pre-nerf, but will want to keep at least one near as many cities as possible, and furthermore introduces a strategic/planning element of deciding which forest(s) not to chop if they are sparse around a given location in order to maximize the benefit. As it stands after the nerf, I think this building is a little weak and in an awkward spot. I agree with Ziad that it's awkward to grant social policy bonuses on a building you are better off skipping if you happen to spawn in an area without Jungle (which is quite frequent). But regardless of whether or not its tied to a social policy, I would still like to see it get a slight tweak to make it more of a staple and less of a niche.
     
    ElliotS likes this.
  20. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Just keeping one forest tile for the bonus feels gamey to me.
     
    Blue Ghost likes this.

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