Bullfights: art or massacre.

[pavelsu]

Bullfights: art or massacre.

I believe that the result of this poll is going to be unequal, nevertheless it can be interesting that you explain the reason of yours votes.

 

[Knowltok 2]

Not really for the whole bull fighting thing. I'm not a big fan of bull ridingcock-fighting, bear-baiting, or gladitorial combat either. I don't loose much sleep over it mind you, but I don't see much sport in it

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

I would have to say art, it's a deep cultural thing for many of my compadres.

 

[pavelsu]

I don't see much sport in it.

Another day I saw a bullfight for the first time (in TV) and i impressed me very much, I am not Spanish and do not deal much of this, but now I am in Spain and assure you that here it is not considered, in any way, a sport.

 

[Caligastia]

Bullfights are kind of barbaric. I saw the running of the bulls at pamplona and the bull took out a few tourists, so I guess it gets some kind of revenge...:crazyeyes

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Massacre, barbaric?. No way. The bull is the only animal of the world that has the opportunity to defend itself before killing it. That is respect.

 

[The Balrog]

Bullfights are pathetic. A guy/Toredor stands in the midle of a Arena (voluntarily) and then they let a innocent bull out to him, then they (somehow) get it crazzed, if not already crazed, and then the Toredor/sick killer pulls out some spears and kill it, and that is just when the bull is starting to win, and if the bull finally gets the Toredor/sick killer they let seven other "helpers" with spears and they kill it. Disgusting.

 

[Knowltok 2]

First, if not sport, then what is it considered?

What does it matter if the bull can defend itself? How many wind up winning? And what happens with a Bull that wins? Does it have to fight again?

I say institute shark fighting in a giant pool. That should be entertaining, the shark could defend itself, so that would be respect.

 

[Kev]

Originally posted by Thorgalaeg
Massacre, barbaric?. No way. The bull is the only animal of the world that has the opportunity to defend itself before killing it. That is respect.

I'm not sure I get this, Thorgalaeg. Are you saying this as compared to something like hunters who shoot their prey from a distance? If this is what you meant, than realize those animals that are hunted have something the bull in this case doesn't: the ability to escape. I'm not an expert on bullfighting or anything, but the way I see it the bull is pretty much done for as soon as it steps into the arena. What good is being able to "defend itself"?

Not that I'm a huge fan of hunters. At least there are those who actually make use of the animals they kill in terms of food, and there are many cases where animal populations (like deer here in the US Northeast) will actually benefit from having their numbers lessened. Sport hunting, like those idiots who travel to special ranges in places like Africa where they set them up around a water hole and wait for a zebra to show up so they can blow it away and stuff it and put it in their basement, is equally abhorrent to me. As far as I know, these are not free-range bulls that are raised for food and the people have a big steak feast after the bullfighting is done.

I see that you are from Spain, and I do not mean to disparage any traditions or culture aspects of the country, but I don't see how it's "respectful" to the bull to send it to its CERTAIN death for the entertainment of humans. Heck, you could always say that the christians were able to defend themselves against lions as well....

It's just my opinion, but I think that bullfights are DISrespectful to the animals along with being distasteful and, yes, barbaric.

 

[CornMaster]

Originally posted by Knowltok 2
I say institute shark fighting in a giant pool. That should be entertaining, the shark could defend itself, so that would be respect.

There we go!!

I'd pay to see some moron to get eaten by a shark. Then the shark could have a trainer that attends to it's wounds between rounds.

I think the shark would be long time champion. Of course with 200 armor and health the person could use the lightening gun and take him out with 4 health left....

So all equal I guess.

 

[damunzy]

Ok, no more quake references!

I can stand hunting. I can see the need for it. Bullfighting though. It seems to be killing for the fun of it. The bull population is bred for this, they are not trying to keep it down so I see no way to justify it besides it is part of the culture. Well so is cutting off the clitoris of females in some countries. I think that is wrong also.

 

[Waku]

First of all I'd like to say that I'm not a bullfighting enthusiast, I have never come to an arena but i have seen enough on tv to have an opinion, and there are some things about this subject most of people are unaware:

- The kind of bulls used in this events are called "brave bulls" and they are result of interbreeding until get the most agressive specimens, what not only means this kind of bulls would have never existed but that they will try to kill the bullfighter tirelessly, what btw has happened more often than you think. So we are talking about something 7 or 8 times heavier than me with two sharp horns and killing instincts, which besides keep living their whole life in enviable conditions if compared to any other animal (till the day comes).

- Most of time of the "corrida" the bullfighter only has a cloth and a fake sword (yes, it's a fake one because the only purpose is to hold the cloth), and keeps dribbling, dodging and tiring the bull with that only help.

cruel? maybe, as i've already said it's something i'm not keen of, but it's a part of my culture

unequal? yes, only training and skill can keep the bullfighter safe.

art? i don't think so, but could someone please tell me what art is (just to see if it fits the definition)

 

[ComradeDavo]

Massacre. You cannot defend it. Simple as that.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Bullfights are pathetic. A guy/Toredor stands in the midle of a Arena (voluntarily) and then they let a innocent bull out to him, then they (somehow) get it crazzed, if not already crazed, and then the Toredor/sick killer pulls out some spears and kill it, and that is just when the bull is starting to win

Your ignorance does not have limits. The brave bull is a special kind of bovid similar to the auroch, an ancient European
wild bovid already extinct, preserved exclusively for the bullfights. The brave bull has a natural aggressivness, which go
increased when it separates of the rest of the herd, as all the gregarious animals.This aggressivness is increased by the
ranchers by means of crossings between the most ferocious specimens.
So that they nothing does for "get it crazzed" unlike in the American rodeo, for example, where not
brave bulls, tame bulls, are used, and it is necessary to put a bristly belt of thorns to the animals´s genitalia, something that here would be considered an affront to the dignity of the bull.

and if the bull finally gets the Toredor/sick killer they let seven other "helpers" with spears and they kill it. Disgusting.

About what devils you are speaking?. When a bullfighter is hurt gravely for the bull and cant continue fighting, takes his
place the following bullfighter of the three that intervene in the bullfight (six bulls: two bulls for every bullfighter).
Only the bullfighter can kill to the bull, and it is the only one that takes sword, others seven I suppose that you refer to the "subalternos", only they are there to serve the bullfighter in some moments of the fight.

The opinions are like the anus: everybody has one. But it is better know that are you speaking about.

First, if not sport, then what is it considered?

The bullfighting "tauromaquía" is much more ancient than any sport. Already it was practised in Crete 4000 years
ago, but its roots get lost in the time. It has a pagan mysterious meaning, there is who says that the
bull represents the fertility, fertilizing the earth with its blood, they say others that a sexual meaning exists.
Certainly it is not a sport, it is a "fiesta" a ritual, is slightly very complex difficultly to explain here. If you want to know something you can buy the encyclopedia of the bulls, the cossío (twenty volumes, 3000 pages), then maybe we could to speak about that are the bulls.

i am disagree with you, Kev:

A wild animal has the possibility of fleeing, not of to defend itself.
The animal has an infinite inferiority with regard to a hunter armed with shotgun. Besides the meat of the bull, certainly, is for food.

There is a way by which the bull can be saved:
When a bull demonstrates great "nobleza" (value) and "casta" (aggressivness) is reprieved. This is more common in
sudamérica and France and more strange in Spain, where they are more demanding to grant this grace. When a bull is
reprieved the bullfighter does a sham, as if he was going to to kill, but when it he attacks to the bull to kill it
he does not take the sword in the hand. Then the bull is treated of the wounds produced by the "banderillas" and the pike
and is returned to the field where it is stallion until
it dies of old (good life, not? ). This perpetuate in the genetics its good qualities. In Portugal the bullfighter does not kill to the bull, but they cut bull´s horns, so that it loses all its dangerousness. There the brave bull dies a few minutes after going out of the arena, in the slaughter house, as the cows, the porks and the sheeps wich you eat.

On the other hand the bull has been raised with caress for five years, only to die in the arena. The wild animal is free and is in its territory, the hunter has not any right to shoot it.

 

[allan]

"Massacre. You cannot defend it. Simple as that."

Uh, I think Waku did. Why not address the points of his defense?

 

[The Balrog]

Originally posted by Thorgalaeg


Your ignorance does not have limits. The brave bull is a special kind of bovid similar to the auroch, an ancient European
wild bovid already extinct, preserved exclusively for the bullfights. The brave bull has a natural aggressivness, which go
increased when it separates of the rest of the herd, as all the gregarious animals.This aggressivness is increased by the
ranchers by means of crossings between the most ferocious specimens.
So that they nothing does for "get it crazzed" u
nlike in the American rodeo, for example, where not
brave bulls, tame bulls, are used, and it is necessary to put a bristly belt of thorns to the animals´s genitalia, something that here would be considered an affront to the dignity of the bull.



About what devils you are speaking?. When a bullfighter is hurt gravely for the bull and cant continue fighting, takes his
place the following bullfighter of the three that intervene in the bullfight (six bulls: two bulls for every bullfighter).
Only the bullfighter can kill to the bull, and it is the only one that takes sword, others seven I suppose that you refer to the "subalternos", only they are there to serve the bullfighter in some moments of the fight.


The opinions are like the anus: everybody has one. But it is better know that are you speaking about.



The bullfighting "tauromaquía" is much more ancient than any sport. Already it was practised in Crete 4000 years
ago, but its roots get lost in the time. It has a pagan mysterious meaning, there is who says that the
bull represents the fertility, fertilizing the earth with its blood, they say others that a sexual meaning exists.
Certainly it is not a sport, it is a "fiesta" a ritual, is slightly very complex difficultly to explain here. If you want to know something you can buy the encyclopedia of the bulls, the cossío (twenty volumes, 3000 pages), then maybe we could to speak about that are the bulls.

i am disagree with you, Kev:

A wild animal has the possibility of fleeing, not of to defend itself.
The animal has an infinite inferiority with regard to a hunter armed with shotgun. Besides the meat of the bull, certainly, is for food.

There is a way by which the bull can be saved:
When a bull demonstrates great "nobleza" (value) and "casta" (aggressivness) is reprieved. This is more common in
sudamérica and France and more strange in Spain, where they are more demanding to grant this grace. When a bull is
reprieved the bullfighter does a sham, as if he was going to to kill, but when it he attacks to the bull to kill it
he does not take the sword in the hand. Then the bull is treated of the wounds produced by the "banderillas" and the pike
and is returned to the field where it is stallion until
it dies of old (good life, not? ). This perpetuate in the genetics its good qualities. In Portugal the bullfighter does not kill to the bull, but they cut bull´s horns, so that it loses all its dangerousness. There the brave bull dies a few minutes after going out of the arena, in the slaughter house, as the cows, the porks and the sheeps wich you eat.

On the other hand the bull has been raised with caress for five years, only to die in the arena. The wild animal is free and is in its territory, the hunter has not any right to shoot it.

Paragaph:1.) Well Okay for one it is still unfair that just because that the bull is specially bred it has to get killed by a guy who has more to defend himself with then what he is born with, i would have nothing against this /art/sport/massacre if just the Toredor(or whatever his name is) would use the weapons he is born with , of course teeth and fingernails wouldnt dig far into a bulls skin, but still.

Paragraph:2.) those sublertanosespinadacomplinada(Or what they are called). I once, un-volunterily on discovery, saw a program about spain and they showed some of a bullfight, suddenly the bull was beginning to win and then these horsemen stormed in and threw spears at the poor bull, so maybe you are wrong or maybe they did something wrong in the program i saw but the fact is that: Thats what i saw and it cant be changed



Paragraph:3.) Does this meen that if it is lets say.....Halloween that i can just kill you because its a Party?
What i am saying here is, Why just because that the bull represents something and its a special day you can allow yourself to kill it? And its all just entertainment for the Crowd.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Balrog, you are so confused that you should die and reborn in order that you understood something, nevertheless I will try it:

Paragaph:1.) Well Okay for one it is still unfair that just because that the bull is specially bred it has to get killed by a guy who has more to defend himself with then what he is born with, i would have nothing against this /art/sport/massacre if just the Toredor(or whatever his name is) would use the weapons he is born with , of course teeth and fingernails wouldnt dig far into a bulls skin, but still.

I would like to see you in front of a brave bull only with a sword and a cape, thus you might say to me who takes advantage.

Paragraph:2.) those sublertanosespinadacomplinada(Or what they are called). I once, un-volunterily on discovery, saw a program about spain and they showed some of a bullfight, suddenly the bull was beginning to win and then these horsemen stormed in and threw spears at the poor bull, so maybe you are wrong or maybe they did something wrong in the program i saw but the fact is that: Thats what i saw and it cant be changed

I suppose that you refer to the horsebreaker. he stings to the bull to lessen its forces and to make possibly the bullfighting with "muleta", which is much more dangerous that the bullfighting with cape that is done with the "entire" bull, without to puncture.

Paragraph:3.) Does this meen that if it is lets say.....Halloween that i can just kill you because its a Party?
What i am saying here is, Why just because that the bull represents something and its a special day you can allow yourself to kill it? And its all just entertainment for the Crowd.

"fiesta" does not mean party. Comparing Hallowen with the bulls is like to compare a Coca-Cola with a Chateau Lafite Rothschild.

 

[The Balrog]

Originally posted by Thorgalaeg
Balrog, you are so confused that you should die and reborn in order that you understood something, nevertheless I will try it:



I would like to see you in front of a brave bull only with a sword and a cape, thus you might say to me who takes advantage.



I suppose that you refer to the horsebreaker. he stings to the bull to lessen its forces and to make possibly the bullfighting with "muleta", which is much more dangerous that the bullfighting with cape that is done with the "entire" bull, without to puncture.



"fiesta" does not mean party. Comparing Hallowen with the bulls is like to compare a Coca-Cola with a Chateau Lafite Rothschild.

It is you who has no sympathy for the bull!

"I would like to see you in front of a brave bull only with a sword and a cape, thus you might say to me who takes advantage. " I don't care who has the advantage, the point is: The bull is born with its horns, the man isnt born with a Sword, so the fight is freakin unfair! The Toredor gets wounded, he hurries out of the arena and a new guy steps in, the bull gets wounded and they just torture it some more!


I suppose that you refer to the horsebreaker. he stings to the bull to lessen its forces and to make possibly the bullfighting with "muleta", which is much more dangerous that the bullfighting with cape that is done with the "entire" bull, without to puncture.
I suppose that you refer to the horsebreaker. he stings to the bull to lessen its forces and to make possibly the bullfighting with "muleta", which is much more dangerous that the bullfighting with cape that is done with the "entire" bull, without to puncture.

You said yourself that he is there to lessen the bulls forces, that to is unfair! Because the bull, which has hard enough trying to hit the fighter because the fighter is jumping around,
doesn't have such helpers, i know even to myself that that sounds weird but it is true, if he cant handle/kill the bull on his own and only with what he is born with(like the bull) then dont mess with it on the first place


This discussion can go on forever, because that I am Danish and YOU are Spanish, and you (might) have seen this all thru your childhood and you (maybe) still go out and watch such a fight from time to time. I can only discuss on what ive seen, heard, and read, but for me it is still a massacre no matter what you say. And please start giving some new arguments! Everything you have said in former post is: The Bull is aggressive so thats why he has to have a sword, and that i am wrong and you are right, PLEASE STOP THAT! And give me some real arguments instead of things youve said five times.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

This discussion can go on forever, because that I am Danish and YOU are Spanish, and you (might) have seen this all thru your childhood and you (maybe) still go out and watch such a fight from time to time. I can only discuss on what ive seen, heard, and read, but for me it is still a massacre no matter what you say. And please start giving some new arguments! Everything you have said in former post is: The Bull is aggressive so thats why he has to have a sword, and that i am wrong and you are right, PLEASE STOP THAT! And give me some real arguments instead of things youve said five times.

Not, this discussion can go on forever because you do not know that you are speaking about and only say stupidities. It seems to me that you are the one that repeats thousand times the same "arguments", if it can be called arguments, since it seem of a four years old child.