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Burnt Alive For Changing Religion

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Pannonius, Oct 30, 2008.

  1. Dawgphood001

    Dawgphood001 The Professional Poster

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    Not to me they don't. Most Christians I know are pretty crappy, boring people. Most Muslims/Hindus/Jews that I know are pretty cool.

    But that has no bearing on their religion. I reject them all as foolish.

    Although you seem to be implying that Islam is an inherently violent religion and all that...due to the Koran. Now, I'll admit that I haven't perused Islamic verse ever and am IMHO quite ignorant of much of religion in general, but I'm willing to bet that religion really doesn't have much bearing on reality. In actuality most people are quite docile. Iran is quite a liberal nation when compared to many other in the ME, yet I'm pretty sure it's solidly Muslim. I don't care what they believe, no matter how dumb, just don't force it on me, or govern me by it (or fight a war against me with it).
     
  2. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    The practice and the theory are quite different things. Islamic "theory" is... well, Islam in its true form is an ultimate totalitarian ideology bent on world conquest. Islamic practice varies from place to place, but fortunately most Muslims don't stick to the "true" and "genuine" Islam. Still, the minority of the fundies (and the largely indifferent Muslim population which refuses to get rid of them) are all it takes to give the rest of the world a serious headache.
     
  3. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    to get rid of them? and how do you propose some moderate sitting in his living room in Leicester gets rid of AQ and the Taliban?
     
  4. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

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    What business do any non-Muslims, on either side of the Islam is bad/not bad debate, have telling people what its 'true form' is?

    On the one hand, its an excuse for bashing the peaceful Muslims along with the violent ones. On the other hand, its an excuse for bashing anyone who says that religion helps to fuel the violence.

    Focus on what people actually say and do, and leave out the half-baked theological speculation about the true nature of a religion you don't even believe in.
     
  5. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Look at the Christian countries if you want examples. They have their fundies too, but they're isolated, ridiculed and completely unable to gather any real support for their ideas. If they engage in violence, their crushed by the police and punished by the law.

    In the Islamic world, people are either too afraid of them, or they ignore them as if they were not a problem, or sympathize with them. Until they threat their own fundies as criminal, outlaws and traitors, nobody can call Islam a modern, civilized or even peaceful religion.
     
  6. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    Are you serious? Have you seen how US politics has gone in the last 8 years?
     
  7. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    That's an utter bullcrap.

    If the Muslims were killing only themselves over some theological disputes and left the rest of the world out of it, I wouldn't give a damn. The problem is that the fundies have decided, as their religion commands them, that the infidels must be destroyed and they do whatever they can to live up to this commandment.

    And the notion that you actually have to believe in some religion in order to be allowed to voice your opinion about it is just a typical fundamentalist nonsense.
     
  8. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    How many witches were burnt? How many homosexuals were hanged? How many people were killed because they refused to convert to Christianity?

    Get a grip. Media hype is one thing, the reality is another. Learn to separate them.
     
  9. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

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    There you go again. Spoiling a fairly reasonable post with an idiotic opening sentence. If you had ever bothered to read what the Quran actually says (which I doubt) You would realize that it is no more totalitarian than the Old Testament and even less racist and bigoted than Christianity in its many forms. In the early years it was very expansionist and brutal in its attempt to spread the faith to the known world. As was Christianity throughout its history. "bent on world conquest" sounds like it was lifted straight out of some 40's McCarthyite rant or one of your friend Pannonius' favorite comic books.
     
  10. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Oh I did, not whole of it of course, that would be a real torture. It says pretty clearly, that Islam should expand by means of conquest and destroy all other faiths, especially the polytheist ones. It also says that unbelievers who refuse to embrace the one true faith (tm) should be slain, as well as all the apostates and heretics. I must say that it's a book full of hatred, a manual to world conquest. The guy who compared it to Main Kampf had a point there.

    Comparison with the Old Testament is not relevant for many reasons (the most important one is that it is a collection of Jewish history), and as far as I know the New Testament, there is nothing even remotely comparable to the insanities included in Koran. If this book is a set of instruction for the Muslims (and it is) of how their life is supposed to look like, nobody who read it can be surprised that Islam is spawning so much radical fundies compared to other great religions.
     
  11. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    No, of course, its not as bad but are you seriously telling me christian fundamentalists havent been able to gather any support for their ideas this decade? why dont you just admit you are wrong about that and we can both agree the influence of religion is much stronger in most Muslim countries
     
  12. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

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    Obviously you were very selective on which fragments you did read then. You clearly missed the part about world brotherhood, respect for the other Abrahamic religions like Judaism and Christianity and all the other bits about leading modest, respectful and pious lives. Carefully choosing only those quotations which fit your particular bias while disregarding the main text demonstrates a moral ambiguity and intellectual dishonesty which I haven't attributed to you before. Perhaps I was mistaken.
     
  13. dwaxe

    dwaxe is not a fanatic

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    True Islam is the religion of Muslim immigrants to the United States. They have non-radical, non-stupid (tbh, religion is stupid) beliefs.
     
  14. Shylock

    Shylock Hey smiling strange

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    Because the law is always fair and just and deserves to be followed because the master says it's the law.
     
  15. Phlegmak

    Phlegmak Deity

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    True Islam is every form of Islam practiced by every individual Muslim. It's violent, loving, hateful, xenophobic, and accepting. In other words, Islam as practiced by adherents is quite amorphous.
     
  16. Halcyon

    Halcyon 9000

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    Do you mean this? It's hard to tell over the 'net. Generally murdering people for expressing dissent does not a happy world make.

    To be fair, remember that the 'interpretation' of the religion is what makes the difference, not the actual basic tenets of the faith. Mose people pretty much ignore those, instead choosing to use their faith to justify things they were going to do anyway. Recall that Christianity was founded upon a message of pacifism and unconditional compassion yet became a world-straddling engine of oppression, holy war after holy war, crusades, inquisitions, witchhunts, genocide, imperialism, etc. I suppose it's fitting that Christianity's sister faith was founded by a conquering warlord, yet yielded centuries of prosperity, tolerance (relatively), scholarship and high culture. It didn't last, of course, but the point is that the 'nature' of a religion really has no impact on what its followers do.

    The most zealous of any faith seem to be the most prone to violence in its name. Consider how many US fundamentalists have called for the nuking of Mecca since 11/09/01. Historically, there've been some pretty horrid radical extremists from every major religion, and doubtless every minor one which ever had political power.

    Liberal and peaceful interpretations of most religions are pretty decent, as they tend to emphasise things like brotherhood and compassion and charity rather than unquestioning loyalty, zealotry and righteous destruction of all who oppose the One True Way.

    Saudi Arabia is a horrible and oppressive authoritarian autocracy. Their laws are injust not because they are Islamic, but because they're a horrible oppressive authoriarian autocracy. Everything else is an excuse.
     
  17. Munch

    Munch Benevolent Despot

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    There is of course some truth in this, just like some forms of cancer are worse to be diagnosed with than others. I'd rather my child became say, C of E than Roman Catholic, but it would still be a huge disappointment.

    Yes, but I am not convinced that this is because of the difference between Christianity and Islam. The Islamic world you describe reminds me of medieval Europe as it should, and I believe that certain Muslim societies today are indeed reminiscent of medieval Christendom. The difference is that fundamentalism here has largely receded compared to say, Saudi Arabia. I don't believe a fundamentalist Christian would be a better person than fundamentalist Muslim, neither would one be more likely to become moderate.
     
  18. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Because you're obviously trying to relativize what I said, and that's not acceptable. Christian fundamentalists equal in agenda and fanaticism to their Muslim counterparts are a tiny minority in the Western world (which is not composed just of the United States of America...) and they're actively being suppressed by the authorities.

    The kind you call fundamentalists (religious right in the U.S., some ultra-catholic parties in Poland etc.) are boy scouts compared to the Islamic fundamentalists like Hamas, Hezbollah or Taleban. You can't even start comparing them.
     
  19. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    Actually they are quite similar in intent, advocating wars over what their religion teaches as right and wrong, inflicting their religious beliefs on others through the law, advocating the death penalty based on pasages form the bible...

    lets face it Winner, christian fundies are most acceptable to you than Islamic ones because they are western. Both groups are scum but you prefer one because of their culture.
     
  20. Mowque

    Mowque Hypermodernist

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    actually it seems he prefers one over the other because one (Western ones) doesn't hold power anymore...
     

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