Buyer beware, the seller is a hero

Apart from being a lawyer, you aren't. And you need to be a smarter one than the opposition.

The law is kind of a dumb thing. And is only needed when people 1) don't trust each other, and 2) try to do each other down. (1 and 2 amount to the same thing in the end.)

Even if you are a lawyer, if you don't typically work in the correct field you are still dead in the water. You typically have to get over the hurdle of a corporate legal department that's already retained. If you can put up a good enough show that cost of defense is comparable with cost of settlement, they might toss you a bone to make you go away.
 
Often, you have a small claim that is not worth it unless you can make it into a class action . . . which is also often forbidden (including class action arbitration) by contract (and sometimes law or legilslation from the bench).
 
The solution is plain: Don't buy anything. Don't sell anything. Don't live near to anyone. Don't tell anyone where you are.

Above all don't sign anything.

Don't even learn to write.

And maybe you'll be OK?
 
Aelf, I suspect most businesses are very much in the middle of the two extremes you describe. Just like workers. The extremes are in the minority.

i always took buyer beware as advice, not exoneration for frauds. but HELL YEAH it suits my purpose to blame big government for inflating the bubble and leaving us taxpayers with the bill.

Well, yeah, of course it's not true that all businesses are out to cheat you all the time. But I'm talking about how caveat emptor jibes with the rhetoric about business owners being heroes and saviours. If you can't really trust them, how can you have faith in them as the latter?

Nice tags.

Thank you :D
 
That is the ultimate compliment. The proper response would be:


Link to video.
 
Apart from being a lawyer, you aren't. And you need to be a smarter one than the opposition.

So be smart or lose.

How gruesome.
 
People go into business to make money. Now some people have different different values on how far down the dark side they will go in order to do so. But ultimately expecting anything else other than they are in it for their own gain is ridiculous on the face of it.
 
The first duty of any commercial business is to make a profit. Any business that fails to do so, must, tritely, go out of business.

And yet PBS is the US's most trusted news source, B corporations are on the rise, and a number of employee-owned businesses are widely acknowledged as leaders in their industries (King Arthur Flour and UPS [before it went public] come to mind there).

The idea that the business model can only exist for profit (and that profit only exists to benefit the owner) is small thinking. I think (or, perhaps, hope) it's a notion that will seem increasingly alien to the populace as twenty-first century rolls through.
 
Well, there's a clue. Don't sign any that do. Or if they do, but do so in very very small print, take them to court anyway for miss-selling a contract.

Not anymore, thanks to the AT&T v. Concepcion case, which has paved the way for a gutting of class actions in the US. It is now (IMHO) basically malpractice for any corporate or employment-defense attorney to not place a class-action/class-arbitration waiver in any consumer or employee contract. Big businesses all will go to the absolute legal limit in terms of how much they can limit their liability for any wrongdoing. Since we now live in an environment where one of the primary tools of the consumer--the class action--is actively being destroyed, every big business worth their salt is going to write up the same rigid contract that essentially makes it impossible for a large number of people to band together and sue a company for any wrong it commits on a massive scale. For example, after Concepcion, did you notice that Steam suddenly had a new agreement for everyone to sign? Guess what that agreement said? Exactly what AT&T won the rights to say in their agreements in Concepcion. From Valve, when discussing their new agreement:

We’re also introducing a new dispute resolution process that will benefit you and Valve. Recently, a number of companies have created similar provisions which have generated lots of discussion from customers and communities, and we’ve been following these discussions closely....Most significant to the new dispute resolution terms is that customers may now only bring individual claims, not class action claims.

Companies do this because individual actions--especially ones limited to arbitration--will rarely if ever be enough to change a company's practices wholesale and will never really dent a company's bottom line. A company can test the limits with much less risk because no matter what they do, their exposure is going to be extremely limited. This means that without some sort of baseline regulatory framework, you are not going to find that "the market" is ever providing you with many options, because every big actor in the market is going to do the same thing as far as limiting their exposure to liability, just like how everyone made you sign something new after Concepcion (if they didn't have similar language already). That is rarely if ever a consideration of your average consumer because it is behind the curtain. How many people walk into an AT&T store thinking "do you have any contracts that allow me to bring class actions in the Superior Court of my local jurisdiction?" How many people read the license agreement when they sign up for a website or an online service? How many people quit Steam because of their new agreement? (How many people were commenting on that part of the agreement when they were ranting and raving about their hatred of Steam?) How many people read the fine print, ever? Not many. This is largely why I believe the libertarian "free market" myth to be, well a myth. If the AT&T store says "sorry, no contracts like that" then Joe Customer is going to go where exactly? Verizon? Same deal. Sprint? Nope. T-Mobile. Same problem. Choice when it comes to what Cellphone you want is basically unlimited. Choice when it comes to protecting your rights as a consumer is almost nonexistent.

So the problem identified in the OP is not really a problem for sophisticated purchasers (i.e., business to business contracts) who have the leverage and the opportunity to negotiate. The problem is with regular purchasers who, for instance, buy a cellphone plan, or sign up for a credit card, or make any purchase that involves any sort of agreement. Which these days is almost everything considering how much is bought and sold via e-commerce, which is full of click-wrap agreements that basically sign your soul away. Buyer beware is stronger than it has been in a long long time and lawyers cannot save you.
 
OK. Then watch out what you sign up for. And make sure that you can cover the cost of what you do, yourself.

But this is only a stage. And there's no reason to think it will stay this way. Before long some very clever lawyer will come up with a way to circumvent these automatic waivers, and we'll be back to class actions again.

The law, it seems to me, is just a very ordinary kind of arms race affair.
 
It will take a clever lawyer and a couple new Supreme Court Justices, or some new laws. Under the current framework there is not much any attorney can do. There remains some wiggle room left in some places, like California, but the window is closing and big business has some fairly clever lawyers of their own, along with the deep pockets to pick their battles and then fight them tooth and nail.
 
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