Buying Tech from AI - Analysis & Input Plz

[JFL_Dragon]

It appears the best way to acquire tech at Monarch level and above is to buy the tech from the AI.

I am analysing the formula that the AI uses to calculate the Lump sum value it wants for a tech. Any comments of assumption you have on this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Mydisease has already done some research into this and posted the following formula:

RC = (MM * Cost * (K-N)/10K) - Research done so far

MY INITIAL RESEARCH


DOES MY RESEARCH COUNT TOWARDS THE PRICE

In my initial findings I have found that any research I have done towards a tech has not reduced the price the civ is willing to accept for the tech. Even after I had research it for 5 turns the price he was willing to accept did not change.

I gather (Research done so far) means the research I have invested in acquiring the tech ? Can someone please clarify that ?



DOES YOUR BANK ACCOUNT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT

In my findings the AI civ did not ask for more if I had more gold in my bank account. This is consistant with the formula proposed by Mydisease. Eg The price for tech was the same whether I had 100gp in the bank or 200gp in the bank. I was surprised by this as I thought it would ask for more but it didnt in my test.


DOES THE COST VARY BETWEEN CIVS

Yes. The formula must contain some component for the ability for the civ to research technology. I had a case where the 3 AI were all polite to me (eliminating any reputation computations) and there was a difference in price. This was a real pain as you had to check out the price from every civ to get the best deal.


DOES THE PRICE GO DOWN WHEN YOU MEET OTHER CIVS WITH THE ACQUIRED TECH.

I havent got that far, but it makes logical sense as there being more sellers, the price should naturally go down.


If anybody has any other research , assumptions or comments please reply. I will try and post some more findings and formula's as I gather more data.

Ive done so far reading from this forum, I thought it was time for me to get off my *ss and contribute a bit.



Cheers

JFL_Dragon

 

[Shabbaman]

You can find the original discussion and parameter values here

I gather (Research done so far) means the research I have invested in acquiring the tech ? Can someone please clarify that ?

Each turn a pile of gold is put into a research reservoir. The sum of all gold invested in researching a technology is indeed what you imply. Please note that invested gold is accounted to the researched technology, and do not travel when switching research.

I've programmed a spreadsheet to calculate mydiseases formula, but I found out that there is no gain in this information, because you can define the cost by simply changing the offers in the diplomacy-screen as well...

 

[Qitai]

My observation to the best of my knowledge.

DOES MY RESEARCH COUNT TOWARDS THE PRICE
Yes, it does, but it depends on the ratio of research point already invested, not turns.

DOES YOUR BANK ACCOUNT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT
Nope.

DOES THE COST VARY BETWEEN CIVS
Yes, for reason that bluff me as well. My guess is military power may play a part. One thing that remains consistant is that the civ that offers me the lowest price for one tech will always offer me the lowest price for any tech.

DOES THE PRICE GO DOWN WHEN YOU MEET OTHER CIVS WITH THE ACQUIRED TECH
Yes! Definately. That is what the value N represent in the formula.


Note the formula is for research only (though it is related to trade cost). For trading, there is a HUGE difference in price when only one civ has learn Vs when at least 2 civ has learn it. A tech that no one else has can sell at 80% of it's research cost. But once it is sold, the next buyer buys at around 45% of the research cost. And note that in all cases, although you can potential buy/sell the tech at those price, the buyer has to actually has the $$ to buy it.

So, here is some rules to tech research and trading
1)***Get as much contact as possible as possible as the very first priority right from the beginning. This reduces research and tech trading cost significantly.
2a) Concentrade research on tech that noone has. The research pays for itself since you can sell it at a high price (This is one reason researching printing press is actual good no matter how useless the tech itself maybe).
2b) If a tech has been discovered. Buy it instead of research! But buy it only when at least 2 civ has the tech.
3) If you are way behind in tech, try warring or just 100% tax on gold and buy tech, this discount the cost by approximately 75%.
4) When selling, make sure you sell it to one who can pay the max potential selling price first, and sell it to the poor civ last.
5) Don't sell communication if you have a choice. This way, you can sell your tech at a higher price.

 

[Cartouche Bee]

You will usually get the best price from the Civ with the lowest culture rating also. The amount that you can save varies but frequently it is in to 20 gold range.

CB

 

[JFL_Dragon]

Thank you Shabbaman, Qitai and Cartouche Bee for your input.

This is quite a large topic, so Im only looking at buying tech for gold and the price difference between the civs.


1st Assumption : Does the price vary between civ's.

Yes, but why ?

Cartouche bee suggested that it may have something to do with culture, and also the civ with the lowest culture giving the best price

I did some testing and the results indicated no or little relevance to culture and price. In one of my test the civ with the lowest culture gave me the worse price.!!

Here is one test:

Technolgy:Chemistry
3 Civs have it (all furious)

Russia 458gp Culture 3rd
England 407gp Culture 2nd
Bab's 440gp Culture 1st

So Russia wanted 11.1% (51gp) more than England.

Qitai - Suggested Power (Possible) In the case Russia had more power than the Babs looking at F8 power score. But Qitai did say Military Power which is hard to measure ?

Here is my assumption (no data on this yet), I think maybe the civ which is more advance will give a better deal. In that example England was way ahead in Tech and this may be reflected in the price difference. If this is true this could be dangerous always giving money to the more advanced civ. ???

England was 2nd in Power using F8 but only marginally.


DO PARTICULAR CIVS GIVE BETTER DEAL TO SOME CIVS.

I found no evidence to support this. In a test France gave a better deal than the aztecs whether I were the Zulus or Romans.
So civ related culture plays no part.


RESEARCH SO FAR ?

Qitai are you saying that if I have researched 90% towards chemistry I will get a better deal than is Im only 20% there ?
Because when I research for 5 turns I got no discount at all ?


Cheers

JFL_Dragon

 

[JFL_Dragon]

BTW Does anyone have a grid on the number of beckers required to acquire a particular tech ? I think I've seen it somewhere before !!!


DOES THE RELATIONSHIP EFFECT THE PRICE

No. I got the same price whether he was gracious or furious. I think is has more to do with the probability of the AI declaring war than tech buying

Im at work at the moment, but theres no work to do !!!!!!
and the boss said surf the net.




Cheers

JFL_Dragon

 

[Bamspeedy]

1st Assumption : Does the price vary between civ's.

Yes, but why ?

The biggest factor that I have seen (if everything else is equal, like them being polite, furious, etc) is the current situation of the game. Some civs simply have more money to spare! They may have better infrastructure, more luxuries that they are making money off of, more cities, bigger bank account, etc. I do what was suggested by Qitai, and check around for prices and sell it to the richest civ first. In my 1-3 tournament game, I was 9 techs BEHIND the AI when I discovered them. By selling ROP, maps, and looking for the best deals, I got completely caught up in tech for the measly amount of 13 gold/turn and a little bit of cash. A couple turns later, I got another tech and made more money, ending up ahead in gold/turn after all that.

 

[JFL_Dragon]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy


I got completely caught up in tech for the measly amount of 13 gold/turn and a little bit of cash.

You said you sold stuff to richest civ but who did you
buy the tech from ?

How did you determine which civ would give you the best deal
or was it just by trial and error ? Using trial by error is fine when there 2-3 civs but if their 8+ it can be tedious.


Cheers

JFL_Dragon

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Hi JFL_Dragon,

Well I never give them what they ask for, I bargain. There can be lots of things going on in a game, so you may want to check a bit further or at least more than a single game. I always use this technique and it has saved me alot of clicking around for deals. I simply cannot remember a time when a civ with the lowest culture rating asked the most for a tech. What was your cultural standing in this game? Everyone was furious, had you broken many deals? This lowest cultured civ, did you stomp them at some point in the game? I don't have civs furious at me much, if they must be furious then I eliminate them.

CB

 

[JFL_Dragon]

Hi Cartouche Bee

No I havent totally dismissed your assumption, but my initial tests dont look that promising, and yes I do need more data. Yes in all my test I bargain to see what the best deal is that a particular AI will give

To your questions:

Yes they were all furious with me because the Zulus and me had 50 turn war which i broke many peace treaties with the zulus. I hate the Zulus and I wont stop until they are dead.

My Culture standing was last. I had little time to build many culture buildings. So culture ratings were bab 1 Eng 2 Russia 3 and Me 4th. Zulu dead

Did I stomp them ?
I think I had a with war all of them, they were trying to rush into my vacant zulu land. But the Russians,Bab, and me all declared war the English so I dont think is was too bad.

I agree there might be many factors in determining price difference and culture may be one of them, but at this stage I dont think it is significant, but i will test it more.

Cheers

JFL_Dragon

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Hi JFL_Dragon,

Yes, after I wrote that I realized you said 51 more gold and since they always ask in multiples of ten, well.. you actually bargain alot more than me, I don't even go by 5 very often.

After you have been at war or broken deals, new deals and bargaining does change. I know your working on some guidelines to help evaluating the entire process so all I can do is offer some other angles to go with. When confronted with difficult situations I will use peace treaties and ROP as bargaining chips. Obviously this only works if the AI feels that they benefit more than you so you need to be in a strong position. I won't make those types of agreements to just clean them of 20 or 30 gold, they need to have techs or be willing to engage in a war for me else I leave them on the edge for a while so to speak.

Your goal is very good. I buy techs as long as my earning power exceeds the rate that I can research techs for. If I can buy a tech for what I earn in 4 turns or less I will buy techs. If it takes me 16 turns to research a tech but I'm buying them for what I make in gold every 8 turns I buy techs. Of course I will research if I have a specific tech that I want like chivalry, military tradition or the AI have been reduced to researching every 40 turns. In GOTM7 I was buying techs at the end in the 4000-5000 gold range for things like fission, yet in that game it was still faster to buy than research. Sometimes it seems real expensive but it is still best. Anyway I'm straying off your topic.

CB

 

[Bamspeedy]

How did you determine which civ would give you the best deal or was it just by trial and error ? Using trial by error is fine when there 2-3 civs but if their 8+ it can be tedious.

Trial and error. ROP is based entirely on territory size. The smaller civs payed more for a ROP than the bigger civs (if they had the money). Never sold my map until I had contact with all civs. If you sell your map to any AI civ, once you end that turn, your map is worthless because the AI will now sell your map to everyone else. I had luxuries to trade, that's what really helped me.

1. There was 6 civs. I at first only had contact with Persia. I established an embassy with them. I had a large territory, so selling a ROP was worth more to them than it was for me. Through trial and error, the cheapest contact I could get from Persia was contact with the Zulu. So for a ROP and me giving them 34 gold I bought contact with the Zulu.

2. Continue this process, establishing embassies with all civs before making a deal so I could use my ROP as a bargaining chip. From the Zulu for ROP and 5 gold I got contact with Babylon and their territory map.

As you continue to get contact with more civs the price of contact with other civs diminish just like techs do. The more civs you know that has contact with a civ, the cheaper it is.

3. From Babylon for a ROP I got contact with Greece, territory map, and 10 gold.

4. From Greece for ROP and 10 gold I got contact with the Chinese and their territory map.

I think it was at this time I ran out of cash from establishing embassies, so I ended my turn so I would get more money.

5. From China for ROP, 4 gold/turn and 15 gold I got contact with the Romans and China's World Map.

6. The Romans were actually behind in tech for some reason. I gave them theology for Monarchy and their world map.

7. Went back to Greece and gave them my world map, 20 gold/turn and 10 gold for Astronomy and their world map.

8. Gave Persia World map and 6 gold/turn for Navigation, World map and 2 gold.

9. The Romans didn't have any money at all, so I tried to get as many techs from them as possible, so I could get money from the other civs. I gave the Romans Education and world map for Engineering and Fuedalism. Then I gave them Astronomy for Invention.

I then went around seeing who offered the most for my luxuries, so I would get techs from the cheap civs and cash from the rich civs. The one problem with this is that the smaller civs don't offer as much money for luxuries as the larger civs (the larger civs get more benefit from luxuries).

10. Gave China World map, Wines and spices for Gunpowder, Banking and 6 gold.

11. Gave Persia Wines and spices for Chemistry, 3 gold/turn and 4 gold.

12. Romans had nothing but furs. Gave them wines, spices, banking, chemistry, navigation, gems, 8 gold/turn and 14 gold for their furs. My civ was much larger than theirs .

13. Gave Babylon Wines, spices and world map for 11 gold/turn, 80 gold and world map.

14. Zulu were dirt poor, also. They only had 3 cities. Gave them world map for 2 gold/turn.

15. Gave Greece wines, spices for 9 gold/turn and 28 gold.

16. Gave China Chemistry for 9 gold. I felt generous, 9 gold was all China had.

17. Forgot I hadn't signed a ROP with Rome, so gave them a RoP for their last 14 gold.

2 turns later I got 2 more gems hooked up and sold Persia one of them for 18 gold/turn plus 30 gold. Traded China my gems for Economics.

End Result: Got 9 techs, everyone's world map, rop with everyone, plus made a profit. Everyone was broke after dealing with me . But I did stimulate their economy with my luxuries and 20 turns later I renewed the trades for more techs, and alot more gold.

 

[Qitai]

Nice post, Bamspeedy. That is a very good illustration of how to trade. Maybe you should start a new topic with that post just to help many out there who have problem catching up on tech =)

 

[JFL_Dragon]

Thats a very interesting post Bamspeedy a little off the topic but an excellent AI trading post. Im looking further down the track when the world map is worthless though, also more on buying techs for gold when other trading options are limited or non existant and also on why different civ offer different prices.

I must say, I didnt realize a ROP or world map could be worth so much.

What diff level were you playing ?

Cheers

JFL_Dragon

 

[JFL_Dragon]

Hi Cartouche Bee

DOES CULTURE EFFECT THE CASH PRICE

You quoted that you often find that the lowest culture civ gives you the best deal, but in my test the lowest culture civ gave me the worse deal.

I think there are many factor effecting the price amongst civs, but I will test the relationship between my culture and theirs. There is probabally a bonus due to culture on whatever price is determined if the opposite civ is in awe of your culture.

Culture modifications in my test would have no effect as I had the worst culture, but this may explain why you find you get better deals from lower culture civs. So it may come into equation after all


Thanks for the angle

Cheers

JFL_Dragon

 

[Bamspeedy]

What diff level were you playing ?

Regent. I had 2 islands/continents to myself (After I did some AI stomping! ). Persia lands on my shores with a settler, so that's how I got contact. My world map was just a map of my land pretty much, because I hadn't done any sea exploration.

 

[Grey Fox]

I believe that Culture and Power somewhat effects price, and so do relationship. A furious civ won't give you as good deal as somoneone Gracious towards you.

The culture and power part I think depends on YOUR culture VERSUS the culture you are trading with, and YOUR power versus the power you are trading with.