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Bye for now, Civ 6 - It was nice getting to know you

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by SCBrain, Nov 26, 2016.

  1. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    The inference being you like the opposite art style; i.e. non-stylised, ergo realistic or hyper-realistic (as in fake realism to make people think it's realistic when in fact it isn't. Too many browns and greys drowning out the primary colours in nature, etc).

    That said, I think you need to re-watch some cartoons.

    Nah, sorry, it wasn't meant as a "gotcha", I've just had a long time at arguments where people talk past each other, and a long time making the mistake of assuming something in the middle of a long post only for the other to go "aha well I didn't actually mean that". So I practise trying to nail down what people actually mean half of the time. In this case, you don't know! Which is fair enough. I can work with that without making the wrong assumption :p

    That and the Guitar Hero example from someone who doesn't like Guitar Hero threw me. I played quite a bit back in my university days, and playing against people (even without drinking games) always got more competitive than playing against yourself or a particular AI difficulty.

    Also there's a wealth of difference between pointing out the inherent flaws in saying "X is bad and the developers ruined it" (hyperbole) and "everything is subjective there's no point debating it". Of course there's point in debating it. But it isn't a debate if one side is convinced of their righteousness. You portraying me as someone only posting to tell others they haven't proven anything is also reductive. I'm acting in good faith here, but you're doing a fantastic job at dressing up snark in politeness. You believing that just because qualitative standards can't be proven to not exist, that you'd rather read a post from such a person who shares such a belief? Well of course, you're agreeing with yourself there. It's only natural.

    That said, you can't prove a negative. It's impossible. If you wish to prove these qualitative standards exist you have to prove them so. Basing your entire argument on the notion that they haven't been proven to not exist is shaky logic. The nature of computer science and the development of video games is pretty well-established, and decidedly not-shaky. Even the psychological aspect of how developers often explore the psychology of games to get consumers hooked on repetitive patterns in order to grow the bond of "liking" the product as a way to ensure franchise longevity. There's a lot to it.

    I replied to your post because you said "it sounds like (based on X) that the game is bad, rather than <these other things>". That was your statement; that it sounded like the game was bad. We then talked for a bit about game difficulty and how that didn't relate to fun, and now you're pedalling on the bike of "I don't prefer to read posts from people who believe that because of subjectivity things cannot be argued". Which most definitely is an attempt at a gotcha from your end (because I didn't say that), so I'm a bit exhausted in trying to debate this honestly and fairly. I have no doubt I'll slip up, but we'll see how it goes.

    The game is not bad. Things being fixable does not indicate that the game is bad, even though it could be. Bad things that are fixed can become good things, or stay as bad things, or be improved but remain flawed. There's a huge amount of nuance here, if you're willing to debate it.
     
  2. God of Kings

    God of Kings Ruler of all heads of state

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    The Ctrl+S (⌘+S for Mac players) shortcut should be used for saving games.

    The old art direction debate is back. I have seen numerous parallels between the Civ community and the Zelda community (primarily Wind Waker vs. Twilight Princess) on this very issue.

    I enjoy the art direction of Civ VI for one. Note that my avatar is based on the symbol used for the Nintendo character Kirby.

    Oh, and cartoonish ≠ kiddy in some cases; note Simpsons and Family Guy for example.
     
  3. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    I also enjoy the graphics of civ6. It can be argued that the style is not to one's tastes but in terms of quality its the highest in the series due its level of details. Well minus leader backgrounds which are a step down from civ5.
    The minimap and unit portrait are poor too though.

    Doesn't have much to do with why I'm somewhat bored with 6 though. It all comes down to the incapable AI and the lack of decent modding tools. I'll be more interested once these are available. The balance and some elements are anoying but I have hope I'll mod them later on. Meanwhile I think I'll just play the Gotms games and leave it there.
     
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  4. bladex

    bladex Emperor

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    try this mod it really does make it better.
     
  5. Arkatakor

    Arkatakor King

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    The game is anything but fine. Like the OP, after 71 hours on record, I am calling it quits. Its not like Civ6 does not have potential. It does. However the game itself was rushed and is littered with many annoyances / bugs from the UI, to how religious units work, etc. I payed good money for this game (got the deluxe version) and yet I feel like a beta tester when I play it. And mods alone can't address all the issues; I have tried a myriad of them that did things like addressing district build times, eureka boosts, tech per era times, none of them solved the main issue I find which is that the game makes you feel aimless and is essentially boring with a horrible AI to boot.

    I have now gone back to civ5, which I find much more challenging and enjoyable.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2016
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  6. c4c6

    c4c6 Prince

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    Ok, have a nice time ... see you later ... next year, when you're back again here.
     
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  7. greenOak

    greenOak Chieftain

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    Just thought I'd give my opinion here as a V hater / IV lover that actually enjoys Civ 6.

    I've played a ton of civ4 (mostly bts, and some RoM type stuff), and haven't ever finished a game of civ 5 (both vanilla and g&k). I got Civ 6 last week and have already played it far more than civ 5, though would still say IV is the pinnacle of the series. I think 1UPT is a bad idea for reasons that have already been said countless times. The AI in Civ 6 is far worse than the AI in civ 4, and probably worse than V. "Worse" here essentially meaning that an average human can exploit it for a bigger edge. Emperor is the highest level I can beat with any regularity in IV, but I'm pretty confident I can beat VI Deity regularly as of now. As has been discussed on this site, production is way too slow relative to teching. The UI is pretty cumbersome, though I don't think it's as bad as other people here make it out to be. So why do I like the game?

    Ultimately I think what I like about VI is that it seems so much harder to play VI optimally than V. Sure it may be easier to beat VI Deity than V Deity because of AI deficiencies, but actual or near perfect play seems extremely difficult to pull off in VI - probably more so than any other version of civ. It is not nearly as clear as to what to do with certain tiles - you need to weigh tile output vs district output, there aren't as many tiles that completely suck in civ VI, forest/jungle can actually be good workable squares making chops less obvious, and harvesting of resources adds more decision points analogous to deciding whether to chop. District placement is a tough one to figure out as well. There are obvious bad district locations, but it can be a challenge getting them right as you need to anticipate the size your city will grow to, how much housing you'll need, and the placement of future districts and their effects on adjacency and appeal. Eureka and inspiration moments make the most efficient teching line less clear cut, and more something you need to figure out on the fly. I will note, however, that I still think there are a few paths that will almost always be best or at least very good, but this is not a failure of the eureka/inspiration mechanism. The new great person mechanic and trade route system I think make the game enjoyable. At the end of the day, I think there a number of mechanisms present in VI that I think are both immersive and present the player with difficult decisions in the game. Unfortunately, due to balance issues and AI incompetence, some of these decisions simply don't exist or can be ignored, but I'm optimistic about a lot of these shortcomings improving via future patches or user mods.
     
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  8. CaiusDrewart

    CaiusDrewart King

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    I think this is a good post. I'd add that the policy cards also require way more attention and planning than Civ V social policies or even Civ IV civics ever did. They might actually require a little too much planning, because with optimal play you should really be shuffling in and out of those every couple turns. That can be a lot of micromanagement. The game might want to reduce the frequency at which you can freely swap them.

    Anyway, I agree that Civ VI has a lot of the elements of a very rich strategy game. If they can crank the AI competence up a little bit, or at least crank its bonuses up a lot, I think I'm going to love it. I doubt I'll ever like 1UPT but the rest of the game has the potential to overcome that.
     
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  9. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak R.I.P.

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    Civ5 was much worse in term of quality. Civ4 wasn't better either until BtS. Story is the same. They make a game aesthetically good enough to sell lot of them then use money to surf enough to work on better AI which is included in some future DLCs.

    I don't know well all this programming stuff but i heard that the AI is probably the hardest and longest part to achieve in a video game.No wonder why almost every games has some poor AI, especially when they just come out on market.

    I personnally prefer multiplayer games so i'm not really concerned with this problem.
     
  10. Dicemechanic

    Dicemechanic Chieftain

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    Have to admit, I'm joining the list of people who're taking a pause. Having won easily at Warlord (to learn the game), King and Emperor, I'm just not interested in it any more. In all of those games I found stretches of play that were just tedious (e.g. micromanaging 20+ trade routes, spies, etc.), slow (building stuff in early game) and jarring (building jet fighters before I've discovered gunpowder). Not to mention aforementioned concerns with GUI, interface, AI etc. I'm sad to say I feel that Civ VI needs more than just patching to make it fun to play, it needs some major rewrites to core systems. I just don't think it's a very good game.

    See you in 2018!
     
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  11. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    It does have some design oddities, but in terms of UI it massacres anything Firaxis has done. You can be a day 1 newbie in that game yet find your way to starting objectives easily enough, and the information you can get in-game about how to play it, how to win, and what characters do is miles and miles and miles ahead of civ 6.

    There are other good examples out there too. Take a strategically noisy game like League of Legends. Complexity is an enormous burden to that game and that genre in general. Playing it at an elite level takes a lot of ability. However, if you want to see what an item does, how to build it, how to win the game, what one of heaps of champions do etc that information is accessible. Only the most nuanced/specific rules aren't obvious. The game doesn't hide its basic rules like civ 6, the UI is again far ahead.

    That's going to be a trend for most good games of genres outside TBS. The UI standards in TBS have, for whatever reason, completely fallen off a cliff. I'm not a big fan of this "it looks like mobile app" stuff. I care about how much of a chore it is to interact with it, not the general aesthetic. Increasing the number of user inputs to accomplish the same thing should be viewed as a straight regression on average.
     
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  12. Horizons

    Horizons Needing fed again!

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    When are they going to start fixing this crappy game?
     
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  13. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    I don't understand why people 'delete' games they stopped playing at all. I just don't install them again when I wipe my HDD or move

    Re: League of Legends _ that game had a long ramp up. They let people play it for free as far back as 2011 and 2012 as beta or alpha as I recall playing it with a friend of a friend. The game didn't blow up until several years later. So they'd have plenty of time to fix things
     
  14. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Thing is, when its comes to UI and such they really did fix them.

    Contrast to civ 5 UI, where only the most flagrant misinformation got patched out. I want to believe civ 6 will fix its UI, but the priority Firaxis has placed on player input tedium over the past 10 years puts far too much evidence towards a conclusion that they don't care about it. When you hit next turn and don't advance turns in a release version of a game, you know the developers didn't care. Same with giving the same orders many times in a row, causing 5-10x the number of inputs on basic, thoughtless tasks that you'd otherwise have needed (take counterespionage as an example).

    It's like forcing someone to open the main menu each time they want to use a champion skill in league. That's not an exaggeration. Civ 6 UI has THAT kind of input inefficiency. It's a tremendous disappointment for a AAA title to have UI that indie game developers and same-genre titles (including an earlier entry in the same series) trivially outperform(ed), even 10-20 years ago. All that budget, and the display on the screen is routinely inaccurate and requiring extra inputs.

    The performance optimization isn't ideal either. The AI needs work. But man, the UI isn't rocket science. They could have copied best practices from pre-2000 and come up with something better than this. The only development studio that's similarly bad is paradox, with crap like "grant province" in EU IV causing hundreds to thousands of extra clicks/game. Way to aim low there I guess.
     
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  15. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    @TheMeInTeam yep. A bit of a head scratcher with respect to the seeming regression in UI going from 5 to 6

    With the news spam being so prevalent I'm surprised they didn't have a filter or log system.

    I'm confident they'll patch the most annoying issues put in due time. I suspect we gave this problem because the art team isn't from civ 5 iirc
     
  16. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Civ 5's UI was also atrocious for similar reasons. Queuing up 2 units was 3 clicks in civ 4, total, one of which you had to also press a button on the keyboard while doing it. The trade interface has been awful in both civ 5 and BE, a trend that continues into 6. The city screen with yields all readily available for multiple cities + what they are producing is gone. You can't automate mundane/routine actions like trade routes. You can't readily see a summary of trade routes and instruct a change once available. You can't waypoint city production. The only reason 5 seemed somewhat better is that you weren't expected to have many cities. That said, in vanilla civ 5 you still had ranged attack = not attack and crap like that going on too, but even by end-stage BNW the sheer number of inputs required on a per turn basis is several times higher than necessary for no reason whatsoever, even WITHIN a 1 UPT constraint.

    The reason I reference Warlords 2 often isn't because it was perfect. However, in terms of information presentation, unit movement, queues, and control in general (IE when something unexpectedly obstructs your path) it's a concrete example of a game that did it better than civ 5 or 6 by any objective measure (you can make a case for presentation of the newer games, but not for ease of use or inputs required to play). That was 23 years ago. Many on this forum weren't even born yet, and ALREADY small development teams were running circles around a 2016 AAA release's UI design? People are really okay with that, developer and consumer alike? Really?

    Games since then have surpassed that UI and further reduced mundane inputs. Why can't Firaxis with $$$ to put on a AAA title surpass the UI of a couple-man team on a game made 23 years ago? Why can't they even match the UI quality of their own ~10 year old title, which itself had serious problems? What gives?

    Confidence that they'll "make it better" when it hasn't been in a decent state in ~decade and was never great isn't too well founded, sadly.
     
  17. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    To be fair city count hasn't gone up in civ 6. At least on averge. My head scratching has to do with things in 5 but not in 6.

    Like sending a trade route to its last destination
     
  18. God of Kings

    God of Kings Ruler of all heads of state

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    What Civ VI needs the most: a Cities: Skylines/Planet Coaster treatment.

    It is time a smaller company create a tile-based 4X game similar to Civ and have a historical setting.

    Yes, it would be derided as a Civ clone, but this "clone" would actually be superior to Civ in many ways. This rival game could consist of former Firaxis employees as well.

    Why is the treatment called Cities: Skylines/Planet Coaster?

    It's because Cities: Skylines dethroned SimCity after a few decades of being the king of urban simulation games and Planet Coaster likewise dethroned RollerCoaster Tycoon after a few decades of being the king of theme park simulation games. Both Cities: Skylines and Planet Coaster are new IPs and both SimCity and RollerCoaster Tycoon's respective newest releases are critically panned in comparison with the new IPs and sales figures show.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2016
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  19. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    The fact that you're seriously suggesting a team consisting of former Firaxis developers putting out a product that could be better-received than Civilisation (currently) despite being a very similar offering is sadly just a damning verdict of how little consumers in general understand games development. Give a company a new label, or a new product, and suddenly it's free of the stigma of anything related to it (which in turn is why management prefers marketing efforts to focus on rebranding over spending money on fixing issues. Cart, donkey, carrot, etc).

    This is not me putting down the success of the titles you mentioned. I'm simply talking about the psychology that affects how these things are received better.

    For a tangential example, Darksiders Warmastered Edition. It performs worse than the original game, by dint of it being on a new engine base and having more complicated graphical tech behind it. But people complain because it runs worse, "and it shouldn't because it's an old game". But it's not an old game anymore. But people perceive it as such. The mistake the publisher did with Darksiders II: Deathinitive Edition was to remove the base game from the Steam Store. I wish they hadn't done that (though I can see reasons as to why they did). The remastered edition was again more demanding, and sometimes had issues at certain parts of the game (as did the base game, but in different respects. Different bugs, etc). But that's the only critique I can make of the product.

    A lot of how a game is received is tied to group psychology, and this is dependent on a huge amount of factors. And yet, consumers can't understand why companies try so hard to market their product? It's an amazing thing, that dissonance.
     
  20. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    The most important part of a game is being able to play it.

    I don't care if you put it on an unreal engine or a v8 engine. If the graphical tech doesn't add enough to the gameplay experience to overcome the loss of quality in performance, then that graphical tech made the game worse for any consumer who preferred the previous performance threshold. Especially in an old game (in terms of original release) where players can actually remember the game running decently, this can be more obvious. Civ 5 had serious performance issues too but it looked different enough and played different enough that the association wasn't made by many players.

    So when the core design of an "old game" gets hindered by waiting around on "new tech", to the extent that it plays worse than the original, yes you'll get complaints. Those complaints are *reasonable* if the game is slowed down, because people playing said game probably want to play it.

    Even if I do understand the reality (I've had graduate level marketing courses myself), I don't have to like it, especially when the typical consumer is so distant from my own preferences in gaming.

    What bugs me more though is that consumers will simultaneously say crap like "this game is boring and slow paced" then turn around and say how the UI is fine or that they don't really notice issues with between turn times :p. This is the same player that blames losses on RNG all the time in games like FTL because they can't perceive where they went wrong, and it's a reality of life that this behavior pattern is typical. I get that. But I still don't like it.
     

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