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Bye for now, Civ 6 - It was nice getting to know you

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by SCBrain, Nov 26, 2016.

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  1. ThERat

    ThERat Deity

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    I guess there is nothing much to improve upon with the current Civ5/6 concept. Either, the developers are heading back to Civ3/4 or we are stuck with what we see now. Since the AI shows absolutely no improvement (and the developer obviously not interested to spend any money on it), the goal should be to make the game easier for the current AI and not more difficult. However, all the subgames that have been introduced in Civ6 are making it more difficult for the braindead AI.

    Religion, Tourism, Civics with the many policy cards, districts with ever so important placements, builders that need to be constantly replaced, severe war monger penalties, crazy diplomacy, harsh movement rules. Nothing here which would make it easier for the AI to be able to compete.
     
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  2. Severus

    Severus Warlord

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    @Gorbles

    You should give Civ 4 a go, it might lead you to a different conclusion about the so-called progression of the AI. It was a game that wasn't perfect but even on Monarch level certain AI leaders could be a proper threat. You'd do well to broaden your experiences a bit and it would give you a better understanding of where other people in this thread were coming from in their views.

    Anyway, I adore the Civ series as much as anyone and I hope they get it right. Cheers.
     
  3. miaasma

    miaasma Prince

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    the AI is pretty horrible; i'm still seeing random nonsense wars 20 turns into the game for no reason, even post-patch
     
  4. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    I still haven't been told why my experiences with older Civ. games is apparently irrelevant. Instead of condescendingly recommending I play a singular incarnation of the series (I have actually played III, like I said) which for all I know could be the outlier of the series, I would appreciate actual counterarguments to the points I raised.

    Even ignoring 1UPT as per thread instructions; go for the weaknesses of other game mechanics and respond to my analysis of them.
     
  5. bladex

    bladex Emperor

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    if they fix the ai this game will be near perfect
     
  6. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Well said @bladex
    No stamping feet and wanting the "good ol days"
    Just positive the rest is littrle fixable bugs, you get the AI to be half decent and this will be a lovely game.
    It would also make it possible to make Deity harder
     
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  7. klail

    klail Chieftain

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    I love the Army and Corps system. I notice I definitely use a lot less units now, seems that way for the AI too.

    I also love the support system. The icons are easy to use and I like the support units they have.

    So isn't it really 5UPT now? 3 military, 1 support, and 1 civilian? Not counting trade units, of course.

    I agree the AI needs serious work but it should be better now than it was in Civ 5 since there are less units for the AI to manage. I know that the AI isn't better, but I'm just questioning that "1UPT/5UPT" is the main reason why.

    If this game can get some good balamce, AI, and UI patches it will be my favorite Civ so far easily. Can't wait to see what the follow-on expansions bring given that the base game is so good (barring the balance/AI/UI patches needed).
     
  8. Balerune

    Balerune Prince

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    With the possible exception of Civ IV, Civ V Vox Populi mod was the most enjoyable. Civ VI with all the complaints about the AI -- I hate wars but I never saw Civ series as a war game. Complaints about the AI war moves etc. just aren't germane to the idea of civilization growth and glory (with victory.)

    [There could be a lot more "politically incorrect" yet completely historically accurate social events (ah events) that would really make for immersion. Say https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag which is just one of the milder examples.]

    Governments were not always nice.
     
  9. MyOtherName

    MyOtherName Emperor

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    It's a big "if", though. Unless the AI happens to be hamstrung by a simple bug, I don't have much confidence that Firaxis will do much to fix it.

    I have even less confidence they'll fix the UI. I've found that when people are used to a bad UI, it is extremely difficult to get them to even acknowledge the problems. The past isn't in Firaxis's favor here; several of the patches to Civ 4 made the UI worse. Also, unlike civ 4, I expect many of the UI problems aren't things that can be fixed with mods.
     
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  10. Ricci

    Ricci Prince

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    Exactly!! Yet many people seem to ignore it, don`t take the beating of the harm this AI game breaking, awfull scaling feature has done to the series. To the point the developers of VI insisted onto this wild mess.
     
  11. Karoq

    Karoq Chieftain

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    idk where I stand with the 1UPT/MUPT debate. I see valid arguments for both camps, but I wouldn't call the discussion over, or say that the issue should be ignored because there have been many topics on the forums that are taking about it.

    I actually really like Civ VI, but it's true that the AI has come a long way, but still has a long way to go for it to be a real challenge. I think there is a case for people to be disappointed with civ vi AI in comparison to BNW. There was already an Improved and viable AI there. Why don't we see it now?

    with that said, I still find peaceful victories to be a challenge. Currently I am shooting for a cultural victory with England, but I am facing the real possibility that Ghandi is going to beat me with a science Vic. So I had the bright idea of DOW on him with out any CB.
     
  12. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    Because it's a different game built on a different engine iterated on over six years?

    I keep on telling people that AI is learned behaviour. This means it's dependent on its ecosystem, the stability of the underlying rulesets (balance patches change this, for example, as do content patches that affect gameplay) and the amount of times it's run against a specific scenario.
     
  13. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    no sense in apologizing for this mess that is Civ VI.

    AI is learned behavior and balance patches change it? there is no balance adjustment that could be made that would affect the ai ability to actually use / escort their settlers properly. theres no shortage of basic gameplay items the AI cannot do worth a lick which balance changes would have no affect on.
     
  14. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    I'm tired of being misinterpreted by people who don't want to give the game a chance ("no sense in apologising for this mess"), so if you want pedantry you'll get it:

    Removing Settlers from the game affects the AI ability to escort Settlers properly.

    Now if you actually want to discuss the AI and it's shortcomings sensibly, I'm all ears. My words about learned behaviour were with regards to why the AI is not the same as it is in CiV. My words weren't applicable to obvious shortcomings that could probably do with some AI rules being revisited (the AI wasn't great at escorting things in CiV, you see).
     
  15. rezaf

    rezaf Warlord

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    I think in the Fall Patch discussion thread someone pointed out the concept of how the AI operates is fundamentally flawed (buzzword: behavior trees).
    Everything in a piece of software can be fixed if enough effort is poured into it, but I think it's questionable whether Firaxis will expend that effort.
    The game sells well regardless and too many players are willing to overlook the crippled AI.
     
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  16. Zuizgond

    Zuizgond King

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    I really don't understand why Firaxis still go 1upt while it's clear they don't want to code AI to deal with it properly. Might as well go back to Mupt in this case. At least the game would be challenging and AI threatening.
     
  17. rkade8583

    rkade8583 Realism Invictus Player

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    The reason I'm not playing Civ 6 is the AI. It's horrible. If they fix it so I can play a huge/marathon game and have some kind of a challenge, I'll be happy.
     
  18. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    They don't have a good UI for 1 UPT either, in fact it's pathetic. Civ 4 UI had flaws but managed to do a lot of things well. It really cut down on number of raw inputs to complete a turn.

    Civ 5 and 6 abandoned any meaningful care for UI quality. It's hard to evaluate the viability of 1UPT with unit cycling perma-broken, civ 5's forced delays-after-actions, next turn =/= next turn, unnecessary unit layer sharing (apostles), pathetic trade UI slugfest, extremely limited city interaction UI, and movement rules shackling unit movements and choking the weakest unit classes in the game. Maybe 1UPT would be more fun if the developers didn't leave UI in pre-beta while releasing the game. The controls are pretty important in a game, quite a few games in history would have been pretty solid if not for broken controls.

    In principle, if you could make decisions fast enough you could average unit move per second (or less if you've RTS background or something, but let's go with 1s/unit/turn). That would mean even on large maps with two front wars and 30-35ish units (10-15 military per front, occasionally builders/trade interaction, if trade interactions were competent) turns could take as short as 30-45 seconds to a player interested in getting through them. Factoring early turns with far less turns this would mean even a large map would be a ~3.5 hour game if playing fast with 400 turns. Standard would be closer to 2-3 hours on normal speeds to reach 400 turns.

    Most games don't go anywhere near 400 turns. If you finish in 300 or less you cut time proportionately. This starts to approach civ 4 times I had of 90 minutes to 3.5 hours depending on settings.

    1 UPT removed some tactical consideration and added others. The developers are apparently content with ranged units being broken sadly. However utter neglect of UI + poor priority on game performance in general make the series a slow slog.

    Add to the slow slog with poor balancing/scaling of tech/units and over-arching strategies/diplomacy and you have a game with few interesting choices and a lot of tedious inputs between them. There are two ways to help that: 1) make interesting choices more frequent and 2) greatly reduce the number of tedious inputs and meaningless (doesn't contribute to outcome significantly) decisions heaped on the player.

    1 can be challenging. 2 is an area civ 6 is pathetically inadequate. It can be improved in both, and it will be more fun if it is. 2 is a lower hanging fruit.

    Players who thought this way in civ 4 MP were dead players. Like civ 5, civ 4 AI was actually pretty downright awful at tactics.

    You might find that guerrilla 2 longbows camping your strat resources and forking cities, or getting 2/3 of your coastal cities burned to be a problem in civ 4, but the AI will never do that sort of thing.

    3 and 4 both had serious divergence from each other and from 1 and 2. Stacking in 3 is not relevant to 4, where being in a stack was a liability due to collateral initiative (you could, if you got whaled on by a stack, get it eliminated over the course of 2 turns by a significantly smaller force with no realistic counter-reaction between them in civ 4). The reason is the change to how siege worked in 4 compared to 3. Civ 2 was similarly very different...losing EVERYTHING when you lose once on defense is a pretty crushing disincentive unto itself and might have been a good model with more modern UI controls.

    The frustrating thing for me, reading through threads like this, is that players make wrong assumptions about every model. 1UPT is "slow" in civ 5 and 6, but this is not the fault of 1UPT. It's a serious fault of the design teams for those games, but there is nothing in principle dictating 1 UPT has to be slow, that ranged/mounted has to dominate it to alpha-strat degrees, or that city management has to be an input-laden chore. The civ 6 design team left it that way, but blaming 1UPT for that doesn't give it a fair shake.

    Movement rules, # movements per unit class, temp stacking similar to when a new unit is produced in a city with a garrison, production rate, relative strength per era/city, functional cycling, accurate displays, accessible information...these are things that can be incorporated into a 1 UPT model. The support unit/other layer concept with attaches is reasonable too. 1 UPT can be made tactically deep and viable. So can stacking or limited stacking.

    If the game doesn't do it, doesn't offer interesting choices frequently, doesn't care about rote inputs, then yes it will feel slow...and the difficulty introduced by hidden rules is the kind of fake difficulty that has no place in this franchise.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2016
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  19. Rathelm

    Rathelm Chieftain

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    From the article it sounds like Jon actually likes the idea of 1UPT better than the stacks, but wasn't able to get a good enough implementation with solid enough AI to meet his standard.
     
  20. Horizons

    Horizons Needing fed again!

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    It's just one big steaming pile of poo ... buggy, rushed, imbalanced and totally underwhelming.

    Firaxis have their work cut out for them fixing it this time around.
     
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