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Byzantine Empire?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Mrkoekie, Jun 29, 2020.

  1. Mrkoekie

    Mrkoekie Chieftain

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    I would really love to play the Byzantine Empire. A friend of mine is obsessed with the Romans and we usually play as a team. We had the idea of how cool it would be if he could play rome and I the byzantine.

    I do not really understand why the Byzantine Empire is not in the game yet. History wise you can't deny this civ. Sadly there is no decent mods for the Byzantine out there either. Do you think the civ will be introduced with the Frontier pass? Any leaked info about future civs? Like datamining uur?

    Please... let me not be the only one that really would love to have this civ in the game. Their herritage, art and structure's are so stunning.
     
  2. Linklite

    Linklite Warlord

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    Probably because it's so similar to Rome. If they're going to go and create a new Civ (not just a new leader), then they're in for a penny and might as well go in for a pound; there are plenty of other more varied civs to choose from. If you have red, why go for orange when you human go blue? I would like to play as Byzantines, though.

    That isn'tfatal though, they've done English/Scottish, so Roman/Byzantine is not beyond hope. Even if the whole "English" thing bugs me to no end.
     
  3. salty mud

    salty mud Deity

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    Byzantines were in Civ 4 and 5, so I think it's somewhat likely they'll make an appearance at some point.
     
  4. Republic of San Montuoso

    Republic of San Montuoso Prince

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    I for once am happy that the Byzantine aren't (yet) in the game. I mean, they had an impact, but they're basically the continuity of the Roman Empire. They even called themselves the Roman Empire. In my opinion, it would be like if we had the France of Clovis and the France of Robespierre in the same game. I mean, one of the main reason people don't want Italy is because they consider it already covered by the Romans, but suddenly, when it's Byzantium, it's a completely different civilization, while two countries that shared only there capital hundrers of years ahead, who spoke a completely different language, had different culture and such, no, it's too similar to have both in game. But it's just my opinion.

    But there are other clues saying it might be difficult to have them. First, it seems that Firaxis tried a lot to avoid having to clustered zones in TSL. For Byzantium, we already have Greece (with two leaders), Macedon and the Ottomans. The Ottomans also share the same capital. Europe is already packed, and this region in particular.
    Second, as I said, Byzantium was the direct continuity of Rome and (outside England/Scotland shenanigans), it appears that they try to avoid cultures that can be too similar or close.
    Third, Byzantium is hardly a staple (it has been in two games on five so far). And we already lack Babylon. And they try new and unique civs that have never been here before (Cree, Mapuches, Kongo, Nubia, Scythia). There is staples that are asked more so fitting Byzantium in it would be difficult.

    Also, as another personal opinion, Byzantium will still be another religious/expansionnist civilization. Whatever I saw on the forum, nothing seemed interesting. We already have religious with expansion (Poland/Spain), religion with Diplomacy (Georgia), religion with Culture (Russia, Khmers), religion with terrains (Mali, Russia and Maoris)... I mean, if they manage to make Byzantium a reallyt fun civ to play, I'm all in; but if they go for the road of very asked civ but with simple gameplay (looking at you Gran Columbia), I think it's not worth when there is other European civilizations that could be much cooler and more interesting gameplay-wise (Portugal, Italy/city-States, Austria, Celts/Gauls/Ireland...).
     
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  5. Deadly Dog

    Deadly Dog Warlord

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    Absolutely we should have the Byzantines. It fits with Civ6 having now 3 other civs that evolved from British empire. One now from Spanish too.
    Byzantines have given us colourful UU's in the past and I for one would love to see a Civ6 version. Nothing wrong with having an Italy too in my mind. I'm sure there are arguments for similar treatment of some Asian civs.
     
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  6. pokiehl

    pokiehl King

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    I would be shocked if the Byzantines don't show up in the New Frontier Pass.
     
  7. Hans Castorp

    Hans Castorp Prince

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    You can argue the case on grounds of continuity with Rome in relation to the game either way, but I don't think the argument that they 'even called themselves the Roman Empire' is a particularly good one. By that token one could make similar arguments about Frederick's Germany ('Holy Roman Emperor'), Russia (Moscow, the 'Third Rome', title of Tsar); the Ottomans (for a time, Sultans of 'Rum'). Even some of the early Caliphs liked to claim that their empire was the true successor state to Rome.
     
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  8. Republic of San Montuoso

    Republic of San Montuoso Prince

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    The difference being that other nations considered them the continuity of Rome. Everybody knews that the Holy Roman Empire was just a bunch of germanic principalities and that Russia has nothing to do with it. None of them actually shared the Roman Empire. While for Byzantium, you had one Roman Empire, that has been split up with two equal emperors, then reunited, then divided again but still being two parts of it, then one half just perished. But the other one is still the Eastern Roman Empire. Comparing it to the HRE or Russia is comparing oranges to napkins.
     
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  9. Killer Rabbit

    Killer Rabbit Chieftain

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    The “Byzantines are just Rome” debate is as old as this forum. (Actually it’s definitely older—I’m sure we could dig up similar threads in the Civ 5 or Civ 4 forums too!)

    Like @pokiehl said, I’d be shocked if the Byzantines aren’t in New Frontiers. It seems to be designed to include fan favorites (read: Maya and Ethiopia), and there is substantial support for the Byzantines returning.

    I think it’s basically a lock—and if they aren’t included, I think it’s a strong indication that we may get some type of “Final Frontier” expansion pass afterward.
     
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  10. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    The Byzantines first appeared in Civ 3. They are as much a staple as the Maya, Portugal, Ottomans, Korea and the Netherlands.
    https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Byzantines_(Civ3)

    Edit: I would put Arabia and Inca too but technically you could play them in Civ 2 if you altered the game files.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
  11. AntSou

    AntSou Emperor

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    @Mrkoekie join us in the New Frontier Pass: Possible New Civilizations thread, if you're interested. The Byzantines have been discussed extensively there.

    However, many are hoping it's not the early but Medieval Byzantine Empire that gets represented.

    The Franks would be a nice addition if not for France already having two leaders and Germany probably being better represented by a 19th century leader if they get an alt.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
  12. Republic of San Montuoso

    Republic of San Montuoso Prince

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    My bad, I made a mistake.

    But, to be honest, even if I'm Dutch, I consider that they don't need to be a staple. Yes, they're important, but maybe some are more important. In fact, I'd say that each game you should have Portugal or the Netherlands, not both, because they both fill the imperialist-mercantile-explorer-overseas niche.

    (And if it's to have Wilhelmina with such an amazing LUA... Yeah, I'm in the Dutch only for the polders).
     
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  13. The Civs 6

    The Civs 6 Warlord

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    Listening to the History of Byzantium podcast right now. I'd be a huge fan! You could go for the Justinian/Heraclius era East Romans, but I also think a depiction of their latter years with Nicephorus Phokas (military style), Constantine VII (religious/economic style) would be fun too. Or you could make them alt leaders for the "genuine" Romans, which would be kind of fun. Either way, they should get one, some or all of a UB the Theodosian walls, or a UI, a Theme as a replacement for an encampment, UU's cataphracts or Greek fire ships.
     
  14. AntSou

    AntSou Emperor

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    If they actually overlap, sure. But Netherlands in this game isn't too focused on that aspect.
     
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  15. Sirsquier

    Sirsquier Warlord

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    A fix for the TSL problem would be to add larger TSL's. Then I think that Byzantium would fit better. If they added Byzantium they'd have to do a fall of Rome scenario like in civ 5.
     
  16. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Please no cataphracts. They aren't even unique to the Byzantines and were Iranian in origin.
    Also I'd rather not another unique wall either.
     
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  17. The googles do nothing

    The googles do nothing Prince

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    The Byzantines have an interesting history and I have no problem with them being added but there isn't much unique about them beside the location of there capital. If the design is about OCC that would be fun, or even 'playable' city states.
     
  18. The Civs 6

    The Civs 6 Warlord

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    They were a larger and longer lived empire than half those that are in the game. I guess you could argue that the Romans are them effectively.

    So what? Were the English the first people to wear red coats into battle? Did the Egyptians invent the use of chariots in battle? The Byzantine cataphract is distinct for a lot of reasons, such as being very overtly Christian, and in terms of timing - since the Iranians weren't really a world power when the Byzantines were kicking butt with the cataphracts, even if it isn't totally original. Plus like every game that features the Byzantines features the cataphracts, so it wouldn't be unprecedented.

    How many unique walls are there, one? The Byzantines could get a better ancient wall, which would be actually meaningful, unlike Georgia's.
     
  19. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I know it wouldn't be unprecedented, but to me there are better options that fit the Byzantines better like the Dromon that you mentioned. I'd even take the Varangian Guard, which were Norsemen but used solely by the Byzantines.
    The Redcoats shown are famously associated with the British Empire though and I believe that archery from the Chariots were primarily first used by Egyptians, so to me those are appropriate.
    If the Cataphract were to get as a unit I'd make it a heavy cavalry unit anyone could build, though I don't think we need it.

    The problem I have with an Ancient walls replacement, or Medieval walls, is wouldn't it get replaced?
     
  20. The Civs 6

    The Civs 6 Warlord

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    I kind of agree that the dromon would be the truly distinct unit to go with, since Greek fire is truly a Byzantine creation. With that said, unlike the cataphract, it wasn't quite as broadly deployed due to logistical issues.

    As for walls, well, UU's get replaced. And most times I don't go beyond ancient walls anyway. So I think that's okay, and an ancient wall UB could be potentially gamechanging based on how you did it. But given the slightly alt/eccentric aesthetic of Civ 6, I think they would consider going with theme as a UD replacement for encampments, especially if paired with a latter Byzantine empire.
     
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