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Byzantine UHV3 and tactics

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by Spirictum, Apr 8, 2012.

  1. Spirictum

    Spirictum Immortal

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    I thought opening a thread about that was better then to discuss it in other topics.

    So here it goes: Byzantine UHV3: Be the Richest Empire in the World in 1453

    To achieve this you need more then 5000 gold at 1453, as the Pope has something between 5000 and 6000 gold, so if you have 6000+ you won the game. No one can get to what the Pope has, or I've never seen it (and I've played this game since lots of betas ago, and this was always true - just one bugged exception that arabia had something around a million and seventy thousand gold, something they couldn't get as they needed to have an income of thousands of gold since their initial turn, and they were dead for some time because I killed them).

    You are the Byzantines and until 1453AD you faced the worst horrors anyone in this game could see:
    1 The Sassanid Persian Lancers (7str) since the beggining until the Bulgarians if I'm not mistaken, when you can only make Skirmishers (2str) of the Mounted Combat tree;
    2 The first plague that only the Byzantines face (and the Pope, but that doesn't matter) around the late half of the VI century and first half of the VII century;
    3 The arabs (635AD) and their huge spawn of Horse Archers just after the Plague, at the same time the provinces of Lebanon and Jerusalem fall to OK provinces and Egypt to Unstable (all from Solid, turning you to Shaky or Unstable) and not forgetting the Flip;
    4 The Bulgarians (680AD), that normally appear when you are still at War with Arabia, and on the opposed side of your big Empire;
    5 The Selyuq Turks (~1070AD), that gave you enough time to build your forces, and win the first UHV (Constantinople the Biggest and most cultured city in 1025AD), but that come with a 13str as a Heavy Cavalry when your best counter are the few Tagmata and Varangian Mercenaries (8str each), your Arbalestiers (6str) holed on walls and castles, the guisarmier (6str, almost useless, cannon fodder I would say) and the few Cataphract (10str) that you trained since you have just discovered the techs needed for them. Spawns inside your territory with 3 or four of them (one or two spawns at the same turn, up to 8 units at the same turn), and it lasts until something around 1130AD. If you lose a city, most of the time it loses the Orthodox religion, and it always gains islam;
    6 Treacherous crusades, normally around the historical fourth crusade (~1200AD), if Jerusalem is not christian. This is the most threatening of your problems;
    7 The Mongol Invasion (~1240AD), not as hard as the Selyuq one, but that comes in two stages with the Keshik (12str, light cavalry): first around 1240 until sometime near the UHV2 (Controll all Anatolia in 1282AD) and then after the Ottoman spawn until ~1400AD. It functions similar to Selyuq, spawns inside your borders, this time going farther on your land, 3 to 4 keshiks on the same spawn, one or two spawns at the same turn;
    8 The Ottomans (1359AD), with a huge stack of overpowering units for your standards just under Constantinople, flipping 3 cities of your Core (Hadrianopolis, Nicaea and Smyrna).

    So after all this if you managed to survive and fulfill UHV1 and UHV2 there is only a single thing you must do to win whatever happened to your treasure, diplomacy, territory: Steal the Pope's gold. The Pope has one city, something around 5500 gold at the limit year (1453AD) and he produces almost 0 Espionage Points. With a 50% stationed spy at Rome, you need something around 5000 EPs on him to steal his gold (10000 if you don't wait for the 50% discount). Aiming at him all your Espionage Points since the beggining of the game, without increasing it with commerce, you are easily able to do this. If you do increase, you only has to do it a few times, since you are a Byzantine Empire with all Anatolia in 1282. A single steal gets you enough gold to pass the Pope and make you the richest empire, the Pope the second richest and all the others behind you two.

    That's why I think this UHV is too easy for the Hardest Civ of RFC Europe.
     
  2. ezzlar

    ezzlar Chieftain

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    Once you have chivalry you are free to put 100% on the gold slider. Then just press Next turn until you win.
     
  3. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    I agree the Byzantine 3rd UHV is not very challenging
    This came up a couple time before actually, but was never changed somehow
    What's the best suggestions for a new UHV?
     
  4. ElCommandante

    ElCommandante Chieftain

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    Since the whole point of late Byzantine history was their long decline over time and eventual fall in 1452, why not have the final UHV condition be to hold all of Anatolia, Syria, and Jerusalem in 1500, since this would indicate that you have successfully retained the core of the Empire against all comers. Maybe a stability check would also be in order?
     
  5. ezzlar

    ezzlar Chieftain

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    Yes. That is a good goal. Or maybe the reconquering of Italy or something?

    There is a good beta UHV thread we can use for this discussion. Or maybe start a new 1.0 UHV discussion thread?
     
  6. Spirictum

    Spirictum Immortal

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    I hope that with the possible inclusion of a Papal States player on 2.0, Byz UHV3 can be something related to possess Rome and the entire Italian Peninsula (and maybe even the isles too).

    I've been playing on Monarch difficulty for a long time (only the first betas i used to play viceroy), and as it is I really think it's too easy to reconquer Jerusalem before completing UHV1. Byzantines have nothing to worry if they have Jerusalem: Arabs get crusades and barbarian ghazis, crusaders get revolts and independence, Byzantine get no problem at all, no crusade, no barbarian ghazis (nor anything else) and no revolts or independence.

    So you periodically smash Arab horse archers near Antiochia and Alexandria, and then after the bulgarian threat to Constantinople is dealt with there is nothing easier then to conquer Arabia back (4 OK provinces).

    The Italian Peninsula is harder to get for the number of Civs aiming at it, the farther distance from your core and all being unstable provinces. For the limit year I would put 1476 (1000 years after the deposition of the last Western Roman Emperor), but 1453 and 1500 seem nice as well.

    But I really can't imagine a good UHV3 of taking back the Italian Peninsula without Rome, it lacks the most important city. That's why I hope that with these new ideas for the Papal States we can at least change the game mechanics to allow the Byzantines to get Rome and remake the Roman Empire as UHV3

    UHV3: Reclaiming the Roman Empire
    Control Apulia, Corsica, Latium, Lombardy, Sardinia, Sicily, Tuscany and Verona by 1476AD
     
  7. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Actually I wanted to avoid having another conquest/war based UHV for them
    But I have to admit, recreating the Roman Empire (at least Italy and all the eastern parts) does sound very appealing
     
  8. Michael Vick

    Michael Vick #1

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    The church could maybe be re-united if the Byzantines capture Rome. When Rome is captured, there is no more Pope, leaving the Patriarch as the only leader of Christianity. Just a thought.

    Let's say Rome does get captured by Byzantium, what happens to the Catholic faith points? Who do they get gold and churches from?
     
  9. Rafaelito

    Rafaelito Chieftain

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    I was thinking about... how about the 3rd UHV be:

    The authority of the patriarch:

    Have all the remaining orthodox civilizations as vassal or friendly attitude towards byzantium (or both) ?

    because the actual 3rd goal is just too easy, u just need a couple of turns to slide the bar to gold or to steal the pope


    Conquering italy is easy too... actually, war goals are just too easy, i urgently ask for a harder 1st goal because hold anataloia is no challenge at all. Maybe the 1st goal should be: The empire of Basil II:
    Hold anataloia + Balcans + Italy + Islands
     
  10. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    Retake italy, should be: Make Rome your capital. easy but harder than then being richest and its "not around" u must do something for it.
    or
    Spread Orthodoxy to 40% as a religion goal. a....after xx date of course! ie: after 2nd uhv.
     
  11. SanJose

    SanJose Chieftain

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    declare war on the Papal States is impossible
     
  12. Rafaelito

    Rafaelito Chieftain

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    that´s a good point, however i´ve read in some thread that there is a way to kill the pope, maybe using spy to collapse them.

    I will try it later, spamming spy and destroying everything, changing the religion to islam
     
  13. Rafaelito

    Rafaelito Chieftain

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    My Suggestion:

    1st UHV: The empire of Justinian:

    Hold Greece + anatolia + Syria + Egypt + italy + Carthago in 700 (not hard, i´ve did it a lot only shipping 3 swordsman and conquering the independent cities around)

    2nd UHV: The true Christianism:

    Make sure that Orthodox is the primary faith of at least 6 civilizations in 1204.( make constantinople the biggest city and cultured is just soo easy, we need a harder one)


    3rd UHV: The Glory of Rome:

    Reconquer the Imperium Romanum: Hold all the regions of the western + eastern roman empire in 1500 (sounds impossible but is not at all, i´ve managed to do it but trough vassal´s land)


    What u guys think?
     
  14. Rafaelito

    Rafaelito Chieftain

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    Hey, Absinte... Please take a look into my old suggestions about improving the new UHV for Byzantium..

    The first and third UHV are just too easy. Switching them for new ones like reconquer the justinian borders and ensuring the Patriarch Authority would add greatly challenge for the player.

    The first goal: Reconquer the justinian borders (basically the mediterranean independent cities) .. in order to this goal be achievable, the imperialism civic must be available, otherwise would be impossible to go beyong Italy.

    Second goal: The authority of the patriarch:

    Have all the remaining orthodox civilizations as vassal or friendly attitude towards byzantium by 1376 ??.. In this case, you should be planning carefully in doing or not doing the Round Church...

    Third goal: The Great Wall of Constantinople: Allow no islam in Anatolia or Greece by 1453 (Which means you succesfully defeated the turks and secured the empire)

    What do you think?
     
  15. cmakk1012

    cmakk1012 Chieftain

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    From a historical perspective, conquering Rome would do nothing to end the Schism. Instead, you’d see the HRE proclaim one of their cardinals to be the new Pope concealed safely up in some Thuringian abbey and then the entire Catholic world would declare a crusade on the Byzantines.

    I do agree about the first UHV being a Justinian attempt, but it may be too luck-dependent considering how few turns you’ve got. Maybe just an Italy reconquest? Then you’ll be bleeding money so badly that you’ll have to let it be independent, that’s pretty historical to me ;)
     
  16. Rafaelito

    Rafaelito Chieftain

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    Well, such are the cases of first UHV as France, Germany, Danish, etc... luck dependents. Actually, the whole combat system is luck dependent.. sometimes things will go badly despite having the better odds.
    In fact, beyond Italy there is Carthago, Barcino, Tangiers and Hispania. Let's say that the game pace would be slightly changed to adapt with the new goal.. just ship 4 swordfighters with the 2 initial galleys and there you go. They will get stronger and 2 archers will be no match for you.

    The third goal is the easier of the game. Turn gold at 100% and press enter for 3 turns, not to mention the possibility to steal the Pope
     
  17. cmakk1012

    cmakk1012 Chieftain

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    Early game speed change has been discussed before—it would just require too much of a rework (I.e. adding early medieval civs like the Gothic nations and/or major balance changes). There’s enough turns for an Italy rush at least. Maybe just one Iberian city?

    I’m wondering if the 3rd UHV could be some Orthodox spreading goal? It would represent a lasting effect of greater Byzantine power and influence.
     
  18. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Chieftain

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    Maybe a horde of Lombards right after the deadline to boot, just to make things extra juicy on top of the Slavs and Arabs. You'll be pretty much forced to abandon Italy either way.

    I think it would be reasonable to add Africa at least - it's only one city at that point anyway.
     
    cmakk1012 likes this.
  19. Rafaelito

    Rafaelito Chieftain

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    I totally agree.
    About the third UHV, it should be something like orthodox Patriarch, which represents your nation as the sovereign of the Religion, having all others orthodox as friendly... or completely hault the Islam at Anatolia, protecting their Christendom at all cost.
     
    gilgames likes this.
  20. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Chieftain

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    Might be interesting to have it be something like the triumph of Orthodoxy over both Catholicism and Islam, i.e. something like have Orthodoxy be the largest religion and have the highest total score of any religion. Of course the deadline should be before Protestantism can realistically be founded so that you have to contend with a large Catholic bloc to whittle down and convert.
     

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