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Byzantines - The "useless civilization"

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Fox Mccloud, May 26, 2007.

  1. TheAmerican

    TheAmerican Chieftain

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    Why do people keep bashing my country ? We have a seperate culture, identity, and we've contributed more to the world in the past 60 years than most civilizations have in the last 2000. American culture is not european, meso-american, african, asian, or english. A famous essay by Frederick Jackson Turner does a good job of describing the evolution of American culture. I'm sure many of you have read that essay, being the educated bunch that you are, but if you havn't I suggest you look it up.

    Now please, take the stick out of your ass and admit that America is not a simple extension of European culture. If anything American culture has overtaken European culture and has heavily influenced it.

    On topic, I believe that the Byzantine Empire deserves representation. No matter what they claimed to be they were not Roman, they were not even close to being Roman. They were more Greek than Roman, but they weren't Greeks either. Being influenced by a culture isn't the same thing as being an extension of that culture. If we used that logic than Russia would be a continuation of the Byzantine Empire. Its also important to note that many nations claimed to be an extension of the Roman Empire, or even the new Roman Empire in some cases. If we excluded every nation that claimed to be an extension of Rome or was influenced by Rome we wouldn't have England, Russia, or Germany as playable nations. Its common sense.
     
  2. GoodGame

    GoodGame Red, White, & Blue, baby!

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    Except references to "Byzantine", "Greek Fire", and "Justinian" & "Theodora" will be removed to allow distribution of BTS to Greece and Turkey.

    :cool:

    So this thread has been Godwinized?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
     
  3. ww2commander

    ww2commander Chieftain

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    The choices come down to significance in world history and thats it....nothing to do with region, preference or browny points.

    Think really hard about it....all the civs included in the game have left a mark on history irrespective of their names or existence today.....every single one!

    The Americans and Bazyntine Empire both deserve to be in the game because of their impact on world history. The argument holds that almost every country should be added based on this assumption (Portugal, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, South Africa, Rhodesia etc etc.) but it comes down to major achievements across a wide spectrum of time.

    Further examples:
    Mongolia - Insignificant now, but damn they carved a good empire
    Russia - On and off they have been a powerhouse
    England - Today they are equal to any other European power but back in the days they rocked hard on colonies and the seas


    Basically if you open any history book in chronological order, you will see all the civs in the game justify their own section rather then just a quick blurb at the bottom of the page.

    The Bazyntine Empire was a major period in history and one that determined the existence of Christianity as we know it today. Also, whilst they were of Roman origin and had ties with Rome, the schisms in history have ensured that in the eyes of Orthodox christians that they are Bazyntium and the catholics are Roman....its a very simplistic and dumb view...but thats the way it is perceived, so calling the Bazyntine empire just another name for Roman is not exactly true....considering the Catholic church's crusades pillaged Constantinople along the way.
     
  4. Duuk

    Duuk Doom-Sayer Supporter

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    Hardly true or there would be a Hebrew civ. You know, the founders of all Western and Middle Eastern religions and the initial creators of the first book to be read by most people ever, along with the first book to be translated into every known language of the world and first book to be copied on the printing press for mass production.

    Also the only people to be such a thorn in the side of the Roman Empire that they felt the need to scatter them throughout the whole empire to shut them up. :D
     
  5. Dnomal

    Dnomal Chieftain

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    [Look up hyperpower online, and you'll find even at it's height the American power was far less than that of the British EMpire at it's height, e.g winning a war in 1/2 an hour without a shot fired.]

    I disagree with that, if Rome had never existed, all the regions France, Britain, Spain, etc. (W.Europe) would not speak simliar languages, or use the latin alpahbet. Christianity may have never spread, with no Romans there would have been no colonisation of other continnets, so no America anyways.

    If Byzantium hadn't held back the Muslim invaders for all those years, then Europeans might be speaking Arabic, praying to Allah, and all around the world all the colonies in our time, would be speaking a multitude of different languages.

    I've said it earlier, having Justinian as a Roman leader is stupid, because Justinian never set foot in Rome! He was the ruler of an empire based around Constantinople, calling it the Eastern Roman Empire, or Byzantium has to be done, since they weren't truely "Roman", as we understand the word, in that they spoke Greek, and didn't rule rome, at the time of course "Roman", meant civilised, which was really the meaning of the Byzantine description of the word "Roman".
     
  6. kdaag

    kdaag Chieftain

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    Just a general remark:

    Too many people in this forum tend to equate a "civilization" with an "ethnicity"! Just because a form om greek was spoken in Byzantium doesn't make it the same as Ancient greek! Languages evolve over time and it is doubtful that they would understand eachother anymore than a roman and a frenchman!

    It is true that the Byzantine empire was simply a continuation of the Eastern Roman Empire with a greek culture but...

    ...it wass clearly different from the Ancient greek civilization in language, culture, religion and a lot more. The Orthodox church would ows its existance to Byzantium. It also differed from the Roman Empire in a lot of ways.

    Simply saying that a major civilization that was around for a 1000 years shouldn't be in Civ4 just because it developed from another is a big mistake! There are very few cases of civilizations in world history that have developed independently from earlier ones!

    Many Civs are however included in the game in order for the game to be politically correct even though they hade no significant influence on world history. The Native American civ is definately one and there are definately more that don't deserve to be in the game before Byzantium is left out...
     
  7. ww2commander

    ww2commander Chieftain

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    Duuk, you have a very valid point in the importance of the Hebrew people, but my remarks were more with relation to the longer lasting and in some cases powerful empires throughout history.

    kdaag has hit the nail on the head with his comment about equating civs with ethnicity. The game aims to capture eras and represent them. Having Greece in the game no way reflects its present status...they are insignificant in comparison to other modern nations, but in its era, they were the bomb. Thus people have to understand that the 95% of the civs in the game were considered major empires with either large borders and in most cases, large military forces to hold those borders.

    Unfortunately the debate can go on until everyone is blue in the face, but anyone who knows their history (and I strongly emphasise the 'knows') will agree without a doubt that the Bazyntine Empire was a mighty and important empire in its time.

    EDIT: And a side note, the debate about civs equating to others is not a good point to use (i.e Rome and Baz are the same) as pretty much all civs spawned from the original 4 (China, Meso, Indian and Egyptian in origin). If we used this view then we might as well have those 4 civs in the game, have plenty of map space and call it a day :lol:
     
  8. Martinus

    Martinus Emperor

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    That's an unjustified dichotomy - like Americans, Byzantines are an offshoot of another civilization, that blossomed in a different geographical area (exactly, from a colony/province of the former). The only difference was that Americans rebelled for their freedom, and Byzantines simply got it when the Roman empire collapsed.

    As to whether they considered themselves Roman or not, both Russian Tsars and Holy Roman Emperors of Germany also considered themselves successors of Rome and/or Byzantium (Russians called Moscow the "Third Rome") but noone disputes Russians and Germans were a distinct civilization. The imperial mantle of Rome was simply claimed for political reasons.
     
  9. ww2commander

    ww2commander Chieftain

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    Finally we can see that the dog is chasing its tale around in circles. Martinus your point is very correct.
     
  10. TheAmerican

    TheAmerican Chieftain

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    What kind of ass hole takes one line out of an argument just so he can show off his "knowledge" of history ? That line was more of an exageration of our achievements, which were great and revolutionary. I'm not going to get into that though.

    I would like to say that your comparisons are childish at best. How can you compare a 19th century army to a 21st century one ? Honestly.
     
  11. Mîtiu Ioan

    Mîtiu Ioan Chieftain

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    IMHO Byzantium is definately one of the most important civs in history - the way in which they combine Greek-Latin antiquity heritage with new Christian principle literally forge a different new&original civ.

    Regards
     
  12. Swein Forkbeard

    Swein Forkbeard Nintendo Fan

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    Hello, Sir!
    Charles Martel was the main guy who held of the Moslems for all those years! The Byzantines held the Arabs off for a while, but then these Seljuk Turks came along and won the Battle of Manzikert, which caused the Byzantines to call other European empires to help them punish the unholy invaders (the Crusades!). And there are Europeans who worship Islam, and they live mainly in the Balkans. But heck, some European islands near Africa and the Middle East (Lampedusa comes to mind) might be rich with Muslims.
     
  13. Titus001

    Titus001 Chieftain

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    Yes the western side collapsed do to germanic invaders. The Roman empire in the East meanwhile survived another 1000 years. I have no idea why you used the example of the germans and russians as the third Rome b/c that view or argument is very flawed when comparing it to the Roman empire in the east. The Eastern Roman Empire has always been the Roman Empire. The Byzantine Empire never really existed, the Greek in the east called themselves roman, not Byzantium.

    The very name "Byzantine Empire" is, in fact, an insult.

    In 212AD, Emperor Caracalla declared all free person in the Empire to be Roman citizens, entitled to call themselves Roman, not merely subject to the Romans. Within a few decades, people begin to refer Empire less often (in Latin) as "Imperium Romanorum" (Domain of the Romans) and often as "Romania" (Roman land).

    Here is a nice read for some of you that might be confused on this subject.:) Or maybe you just want to learn about history.
    http://www.romanity.org/htm/fox.01.en.what_if_anything_is_a_byzantine.01.htm
     
  14. LoH_Numa

    LoH_Numa Chieftain

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    :) I'd prefer if Canada was included. :D
     
  15. Lance of Llanwy

    Lance of Llanwy Chieftain

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    Bah! I knew it would happen, but all it serves to do is make me annoyed. Well, whatever. I'll mod them out for something more....distinct...
     
  16. Obi-Zahn Kenobi

    Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chieftain

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    I just miss Theodora, that's all. She was a hottie.
     
  17. Gaius Octavius

    Gaius Octavius Chieftain

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    Theodora was a prostitute in real life. (A burlesque dancer who caught the eye of Justinian.)
     
  18. ww2commander

    ww2commander Chieftain

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    The same problem that quite a lot of people have is that their argument is based on the Bazy empire's origins and name.

    The Great Schism is what finally made the Bazy empire seperate from its western counterpart. So the argument does stand in that they were the remanents of the Roman empire and even considered themselves Roman, but in the later period, Rome and Constantinople were seperate and considered seperate empires.

    One was Catholic and the other Orthodox. Thus, whilst the Bazys may not have the same violent struggle as, lets say, the American against the British...the same occured in that a region and peoples officially sperated from their former fathers and created their own empire.

    In fact, the irony of having Greece in the game is incorrect as prior to the Roman conquest of the Greek region, city states still ruled like wild fire. The true united Greece came about from the Eastern Orthodox Empire (aka Eastern Roman Empire, aka Bazyntine Empire) in that our religion and cause united us as one people.

    Try telling a Greek that right up until its collapse, the Bazy empire was Roman will probably get the same response to telling an American that they are British because they still associate and support the UK. It just does not make sense.

    All empires go through stages and era which define and redefine their importance and uniqueness....and all Empire are formed from the ashes of older Empires.

    Rome > Holy Roman Empire > Western European country empires
    Rome > Eastern Roman Empire > Greece, Balkan countries, Russia
    Huns > Seljuks Turks > Ottoman Empire > Modern Turkey
    Rome > Britian > United Kingdom > Modern UK, Australia and America (to name a few)

    I think you get the examples above....the original empire does not equate to the new empire. ;)
     
  19. Sansevero

    Sansevero Chieftain

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    Why do you keep spelling it BAZYNTINE?
     
  20. Reprisal

    Reprisal Chieftain

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    The inclusion of the Byzantine Empire would be interesting in that it brings the flavour of Greek, Roman and the Slavic influences together and adds in Christianity to great effect. While it might be easier to just include Constantine to the list of Roman Emperors, I figure having a separate Byzantine Empire can make things interesting as well...
     

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