[NFP] Byzantium First Look

[Askia Muhammad]

I never said it was unimportant. I said that it was more than adequately represented in VI and that there are plenty of other interesting, important places that could be represented as civs.

This is absolutely true. There is more than enough representation of the period and several other cultures and geographic areas are sparsely covered. I would have preferred Portugal to them.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I guess that applies for any warmonger civ tho, don't forget their bonuses apply to religious units, so you could pull an Aztec and once you have a nice happy empire going focus into pushing your religious units to finish off the rest.

I like how both Rome and Byzantium have an amenity bonus (well the Roman amenity bonus is very unimpressive right now, I would say Bath worth a +3 amenity).

Bread and Circuses all the way, both IRL and in-game.

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

One thing I haven't seen anyone really talk about is a cool mechanic under Taxis: spread religion on kills. You don't really need much of a faith economy to buy apostles if you're running around killing everything in sight. Up until now, the only way to use that mechanic is to get those notoriously-hard-to-upgrade Warrior Monks. But it was so difficult to get going, but with Byzantium you can focus a whole strategy around that. I've been waiting for a civ to have this Ability since R+F and it's finally here.

I could also see coupling this with the pantheon belief that gives you faith on kills within 8 tiles of a holy site. Kill everyone's units, get faith, AND spread religion at the same time. This sounds like it's going to be a fun civ.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I like how both Rome and Byzantium have an amenity bonus (well the Roman amenity bonus is very unimpressive right now, I would say Bath worth a +3 amenity).

Bread and Circuses all the way, both IRL and in-game.

Well now there has to be an achievement involving partisans spawning in a city with a Hippodrome.

 

[ehecatzin]

I like how both Rome and Byzantium have an amenity bonus (well the Roman amenity bonus is very unimpressive right now, I would say Bath worth a +3 amenity).

Bread and Circuses all the way.

Yeah Rome is another civ that could use a rebalance, to me It seems Rome is the best candidate to have bonus to the Government plaza...It's even modeled after a Forum. something like tier 1 government buildings also trigger when you build it.

 

[Lord Lakely]

^ He conquered Bulgaria? This means Bulgaria was once part of Byzantium and then passed to Ottomans until several centuries later that Bulgaria became a free nation of its own?

Bulgaria was part of the Byzantine empire when the Ottomans conquered them (evidenced by Varna, Ohrid, Sardica, Philippopolis, Nicopolis being cities on the Byzantine city list - all of which were cities of the Bulgarian empire) it would take until the late 19th century for another independent Bulgarian state.

 

[gunnergoz]

I'm not a religion kind of guy in Civ or in real life, so Byzantium does not do much for me. As it is, I really dislike the religion side of the game to begin with. Fortunately I've found I can now dictate how many religions will be allowed in a game and it can even be zero so this helps my aversion a lot. Even so, limiting a 10-16 player map to only a couple of religions really opens up possibilities as competition is more stark and the map is less cluttered with all those religious units that I find so annoying. I might find the religious game more interesting if it were not for those doggone religious units. If they came up with a version to play religious game without religious units, I'd buy that DLC. Just my 2 bits, your mileage may vary...

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Just a nomenclature note:

"Tagma" in the period that the Civ is focused on (late 10th century CE) refers specifically to the Tagmata, the cavalry regiments established in Constantinople by the 9th century as the 'core' of the field army and equipped as Kataphractoi (possibly/probably copied from the Late Roman Empire Equites Cataphractoi armored auxiliary cavalry lancers, who were originally recruited from Sarmatian and Alan foreigners/Allies). Luckily there are a number of military writers in Byzantium from this period, unluckily they don't always agree, so the actual strength of the Tagmata can be variously interpreted as being somewhere between 2000 and 6000 each, but being supplemented by a larger number of Turks, Khazars and other foreign mercenaries. The Tagmata themselves at various times included foreigners and the word was applied by the end of the 10th century to Varangians and other infantry Palace Guards troops.

The depiction of the Tagmata is dead on: armored lancers with a 'teardrop' shield and armored horse. The only quibble (and that's all it is) is that most of the Tagmata are shown on a completely armored horse, the entire horse's body covered with a 'blanket' from chest to tail with armor in the form of metal scales attached to the blanket. The 'half armor' on the front of the saddle only is also shown, though, just more rarely.

However, the Dromon and 'Greek Fire' are total Fantasy, in that the maximum range of a Fire Projector was less than 100 meters, or less than that of even the lightest catapult or self-bow. What set Greek Fire apart was not the range, but the fact that if it hit any ship that ship was destroyed - the fire could not be extinguished with water, so unless the enemy ship happened to have a large supply of sand or wet blankets to smother the fire, and fearless men to brave the fire, it was going to go up like the proverbial Torch.
In addition, the projectors were absolutely worthless against any land unit. With the short range, unless the enemy was conveniently standing in the surf, they were out of range unless you beached your ship. The Greek Fire could be used to attack, say, a city harbor or light house or wharf or any other waterline construction, but enemy troops just had to amble back about half a Hippodrome's length from the waterline and they were pretty much safe.
Oh well, it does make the point, if with the wrong mechanic, that the Byzantines have both land and naval Offensive Units.

Still want to try the Gauls first, though . . .

 

[8housesofelixir]

It seems Rome is the best candidate to have bonus to the Government plaza...It's even modeled after a Forum. something like tier 1 government buildings also trigger when you build it.

Cool idea. I would say Byzantium can also use a Gov. Plaza bonus since they were the bureaucratic civ. For instance awards more governor titles.

——————————————————

One idea I had before about a "decentralization" design of the civ is that, before researching the civil service/bureaucracy civic, you will only have a limited control over your non-capital non-governor city - say, you cannot let them focus on a given yield, and upon researching the bureaucracy they will have a small bonus of gold/production output. Which means you can only fully control your empire after the establishment of bureaucracy.
(On the other hand, Feudalism will increase the yields of non-governor cities, since it was about Feudal contract rather than direct control.)

Byzantium, under this mechanic, would have an inspiration of civil service/bureaucracy as well as a bigger bureaucratic bonus.

 

[Basileus Rhomaion]

What is the building in the Basil II speaking screen supposed to be? Looks generic and certainly isn't world-famous. Surely the most defining building of the Byzantine Empire is the Hagia Sophia, and that should have been there.

I think it's supposed to be a version of the palace of Blachernae, but not sure since that building is a ruin now more or less. It's definitely not one of the major churches though. However I do agree that it's quite baffling Suleiman got the Hagia Sophia but Basil didn't.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

nowhere near the level of assymetric design I would be expecting from a game in its fourth year of design.

Hmm, interesting.
Asymmetry a term known in game design is a factor that makes from every single game a unique experience and has many levels. From soft ones (in card game it can be a card shuffle, in the Civilization starting position in a unique random map), to the hardest ones - unique win conditions. Different Civs with a unique set of mini-rules are asymmetric from the definition. And from all Civs we have in the game The Maya design (similar to Kongo, Mali, Maori) is one of the closest examples of asymmetry of rules and is the hardest on an asymmetry scale we got in a game. You break the general rule of the game and give a certain fraction a unique distinct game rule. Yes, it may make your playstyle narrow sometimes, but asymmetry has nothing to do with it because the aim of asymmetry is uniqueness. Perhaps your issue with the Maya means something else because lack of asymmetry (relatively in comparison with other Civ design) is the last thing you can impute them

 

[Navelgazer]

It's not a matter of favoritism, so much as what actually adds something unique to the game.

I think this is accurate, plus Byzantium is in a weird place where the name is known (to the general and game-buying public) as an "Important" empire, but not much flavor is known or understood, and the interesting things about them (for me, the political ties to the feverous sports rivalries between, say, the Blues and the Greens) are tough to translate into a game like this. So we get the Hippodrome, and it looks great visually and powerful mechanically, and that's great.

Using Basil II Bulgaroktonos as the face of a mechanic of religious conversion helping with conquest and vice-versa, I like that a lot. It may not be indicative of the Byzantine Empire as a whole, but it works for Basil as a leader.

(And things are going to get silly late game if you're building zoos to get free tanks and modern armor, but this game is silly, so that's fine.)

It's a shame that Byzantine artwork is difficult-to-impossible to really show off in the civ's design, but it makes me think of a (probably bad) idea for Civ7's leader-style: Animating the most iconic artwork done of each leader, in their civilization's own style. The full idea there is probably unworkable, but it would add a lot to flavor.

And while I like Basil's animations, I agree with Zaarin that something more ornate would sell it better.

 

[Stringer1313]

Just a nomenclature note:

In addition, the projectors were absolutely worthless against any land unit. With the short range, unless the enemy was conveniently standing in the surf, they were out of range unless you beached your ship. The Greek Fire could be used to attack, say, a city harbor or light house or wharf or any other waterline construction, but enemy troops just had to amble back about half a Hippodrome's length from the waterline and they were pretty much safe.
Oh well, it does make the point, if with the wrong mechanic, that the Byzantines have both land and naval Offensive Units.

Still want to try the Gauls first, though . . .

I know this wasn't the point of your post, but this is why I have such a problem with several ships' abilities. To have submarines "raid" the costs and kill land units 2 units in, and allowing any ranged ship to attack land units two units in, is just so weird and ridiculously OP. I understand why the submarine has this ability, to preserve the line of units from privateers in which the raid thing makes more sense, but still, it's just so awkward.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Just a nomenclature note:



However, the Dromon and 'Greek Fire' are total Fantasy, in that the maximum range of a Fire Projector was less than 100 meters, or less than that of even the lightest catapult or self-bow. What set Greek Fire apart was not the range, but the fact that if it hit any ship that ship was destroyed - the fire could not be extinguished with water, so unless the enemy ship happened to have a large supply of sand or wet blankets to smother the fire, and fearless men to brave the fire, it was going to go up like the proverbial Torch.
In addition, the projectors were absolutely worthless against any land unit. With the short range, unless the enemy was conveniently standing in the surf, they were out of range unless you beached your ship. The Greek Fire could be used to attack, say, a city harbor or light house or wharf or any other waterline construction, but enemy troops just had to amble back about half a Hippodrome's length from the waterline and they were pretty much safe.
Oh well, it does make the point, if with the wrong mechanic, that the Byzantines have both land and naval Offensive Units.

As so much 'off' as Indonesian Djongs being Ranged warships. eh? you did quote a class of Aceh supergalleass with so many guns but focused on boarding actions rather than pure ranged combat (Is this Supergalleass fits the definition of Djongs?). Lemme guess that Dromon's flamethrower is similiarly off in the same way. Actually Dromon suits Melee combat better.

 

[tedhebert]

So boosted modern armor with no resource requirement?

I can get behind that.

This - do they really need maintenance freedom (confirmed for gold and likely for oil in case of a later upgrade to tanks, too) on top? Isn't just a free unit enough of a bonus, especially if you take in account how good they can become CS-wise because of the other unique stuff? Except the Maya, all NFP civs seem to be way more extreme in their boni then the old ones...

I frkn love it. Has everything I look for, plus cool hippo and cool affiliated wonder.

edit: but i wonder, if you have a resource free unit and upgrade it, will it still be tagged as resource free? I would expect so, but you never know with civ vi.

Yes that is a great question: Will the resource independance remain when you upgrade the unit ? Let's say you got a Tagma at creation: I assume it'll be upgradable to cuirassier, then tank. Will the dependance on Iron, then Oil also be lifted ? or will they re-install upon upgrading. I hope it DOES come back, for balance's sake, but it's hard to tell ATM

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Yes that is a great question: Will the resource independance remain when you upgrade the unit ? Let's say you got a Tagma at creation: I assume it'll be upgradable to cuirassier, then tank. Will the dependance on Iron, then Oil also be lifted ? or will they re-install upon upgrading. I hope it DOES come back, for balance's sake, but it's hard to tell ATM

Sounds like a great question to punt to the devs.

 

[Arianrhod]

I guess that applies for any warmonger civ tho, don't forget their bonuses apply to religious units, so you could pull an Aztec and once you have a nice happy empire going focus into pushing your religious units to finish off the rest.

It's certainly a huge boon to RV, I agree. I just have a hard time seeing it as a direct DomV civ, because you're not getting much bonus until the steamroll has already begun; if you have 2-3 Holy Cities feeding your army, you probably own half the map anyway. It might help you win a little faster, but Lily's going to be in space before you get a religion so who cares.

This isn't to say that the Domination benefits are useless, though! But I see them less as a tool for the pursuit of DomV, and more as a "delete Gandhi/Georgia/etc." button that also gives you a safety net if you don't feel safe continuing to press a RV. This might change if it turns out that the Dromon or Tagma are disgusting, but Phoenicia isn't exactly top tier and several of the best Domination UUs are active before Knights even show up.

But then again I'm not an expert I'm just the dude whose "power fantasy" is flexing my Cothons against dudes with smaller docks.

 

[tedhebert]

Sounds like a great question to punt to the devs.

Feel free, I ain't on twitter...

 

[Sostratus]

Yes that is a great question: Will the resource independance remain when you upgrade the unit ? Let's say you got a Tagma at creation: I assume it'll be upgradable to cuirassier, then tank. Will the dependance on Iron, then Oil also be lifted ? or will they re-install upon upgrading. I hope it DOES come back, for balance's sake, but it's hard to tell ATM

The resource free part is probably critical for the fact that they didn’t want the code checking your resource income to decide what unit to spawn. Unlike regularly building a tank, there is nothing to stop you from creating them via Hippodrome. For the AI, this would destroy them.

However, this mechanic should be the same one as the free heavy cav from meteor strikes, in terms of does it keep resource waiver on upgrade.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Just a nomenclature note:

However, the Dromon and 'Greek Fire' are total Fantasy, in that the maximum range of a Fire Projector was less than 100 meters, or less than that of even the lightest catapult or self-bow. What set Greek Fire apart was not the range, but the fact that if it hit any ship that ship was destroyed - the fire could not be extinguished with water, so unless the enemy ship happened to have a large supply of sand or wet blankets to smother the fire, and fearless men to brave the fire, it was going to go up like the proverbial Torch.
In addition, the projectors were absolutely worthless against any land unit. With the short range, unless the enemy was conveniently standing in the surf, they were out of range unless you beached your ship. The Greek Fire could be used to attack, say, a city harbor or light house or wharf or any other waterline construction, but enemy troops just had to amble back about half a Hippodrome's length from the waterline and they were pretty much safe.
Oh well, it does make the point, if with the wrong mechanic, that the Byzantines have both land and naval Offensive Units.

Still want to try the Gauls first, though . . .

Love the history class here . To my knowledge early "firearms" were all of very short range due to various technological limits (still very deadly).

On the other hand, Byzantium was an important naval powerhouse in the Mediterranean for several centuries before the rise of Venice/Genoa, making them an early semi-naval civ by having an OP ship kind of works.