1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

[NFP] Byzantium First Look

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by bite, Sep 17, 2020.

  1. Leucarum

    Leucarum King

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2018
    Messages:
    799
    Gender:
    Male
    Awesome! I hadn't noticed that. That also synergizes nicely with ECs boosting theatre square adjacencies!
     
    Hawke9 and Eagle Pursuit like this.
  2. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Messages:
    1,497
    I'm not normally an anti-grammer nazi, but there is both the idomatic, informal fallacy, as well as the literal colloquial begging of questions.

    Also, to be a semantics nazi, you're not being a grammar nazi if there's no actual grammar being disputed.
     
  3. Andrew Johnson [FXS]

    Andrew Johnson [FXS] Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 15, 2020
    Messages:
    89
    Gender:
    Male
    I know we use the adjective "byzantine" to refer to complicated bureaucratic methods, but I think the title of the bureaucratic civ might go elsewhere. China certainly had an elaborate bureaucracy, as did Rattanakosin-era Siam, Korea, and others, ones that were much larger than the Byzantine system. But my go-to might be the Austro-Hungarians. Failures in the bureaucratic system as well as its overwhelming authority led to real social and political problems.
     
    Weraptor, Kimiimaro, Meluhhan and 8 others like this.
  4. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2010
    Messages:
    15,532
    Didn't that particular usage evolve out of the idea of a royal court full of self-serving aristocrats vying for power with elaborate intrigues, feuds, and betrayals?
     
    Myomoto and Andrew Johnson [FXS] like this.
  5. MrRadar

    MrRadar Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    1,434
    The religion spread strength upon unit kill is 250, the same as if an apostle made the kill, only minus respective reduction of the religion of the defeated heretic religion unit. But to kill military units is then more effective than using missionaries and non-translator or prozelytiser apostles to spread.

    They don't need to go for domination. Declare, kill all enemy units, converting their cities, make peace, return some cities to redeem grievances, befriend, make alliance, move on onto another. For Byzantium, Yerevan is overrated :)
     
  6. Josephias

    Josephias Emperor

    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,010
    Just noticed... the beard takes most of the attention, but Basil's 'tache is also remarkable. They better have taken good care of facial hair in Gaul's leader design, otherwise it would be underwhelming.



    If hopefully, the Gaul leader keeps up with facial hair expectations, I think I'll start to officially refer to this pack as the NFP Dramatic Moustache Pack... :D
     
    Hawke9, Kimiimaro, Meluhhan and 8 others like this.
  7. CoconutTank

    CoconutTank Unapologetic Warmonger Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2014
    Messages:
    332
    Location:
    Macro Land
    Feels reminiscent of Professional Sports in the Through The Ages board game granting happiness and military strength :)

    Overall I am personally feeling quite excited to try Byzantium. I guess it helps that I'm still mostly an Advance Wars and *craft player at heart, and I can tolerate hairy micromanagement to an extent :p

    Free units and more amenities from the Hippodrome will be pretty cool, but it'll still be competing heavily with other districts.
    0. Dams/Canals
    1. Campus/Holy Site
    2. Commercial Hub/Harbor
    3. Theater Square/Encampment
    4. Industrial Zones and other things
    -. Neighborhood

    The above is a fairly rough personal ranking of district priority that has a lot of circumstance abstracted away, but where would one say Hippodrome should go? What would your own personal ranking for district priority look like?

    I'm really glad that Byz is also going to get some help with getting a religion, which is the main problem I've had when playing as Spain. Even so, I hope that Byz's religion bonuses don't have to tie to a personally founded religion.

    Crusade and Grand Master's Chapel both seem super great for Byz.

    And Dromons don't tie as well into the rest of the package, but +1 range over Quads and bonus damage vs units are all quite welcome.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
    Kmart_Elvis likes this.
  8. Pitohui

    Pitohui Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2019
    Messages:
    61
    Gender:
    Male
    Byzantium really wants to attack civs that follow their own religion because of the full damage thing,and it would be thematically fitting,so I don’t understand why the Agenda isn’t something like „Dislike Civs that follow his religion but don’t have a lot of Holy Sites“ or something like that.This Agenda seems unhistorical AND like it is going to shoot the civs capability in the foot.
     
  9. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Idea Fountain

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,665
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Belgium
    I mean I have pointed it out twice in this thread before but... Basil's main historic achievement is beating up the second Bulgarian empire... who were Orthodox Christians. :hammer2:

    actually not even that, the Bulgarians were the ones who spread Eastern Orthodoxy all over slavic europe through violence and indoctrination so basically this IS a Bulgarian civ in disguise which, I'm sure you'll agree, is highly ironic. :lol:
     
  10. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    2,251
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Minnesota, USA
    Assuming it has the same cost, the Dromon will let you dominate the shorelines around you. Quads are not far into the tech tree, and this one has two range (literally playable) and +10:c5strength: vs units. So you have a 35:c5rangedstrength: strength frigate in the classical, basically.
    How is anyone going to deal with that?

    You can think of the hippodrome and its buildings as literally training units that also happens to give amenities. A lot of your cities should make them.
    Hippodrome- a half cost district. It will cost between ~35ish and 270:c5production: This will always be cheaper than contemporary heavy cavalry.* And you get amenities.
    Arena - cost 150:c5production:. This is less than a knight at 220:c5production:. And you get amenities.
    Zoo - cost 360:c5production:. This is almost the same as a Cuirassier, at 340:c5production:. And you get amenities.
    Stadium - cost 480:c5production:. This is identical to Tanks, at 480:c5production:, and much cheaper than modern armor, at 680:c5production:. And you get amenities. And essentially +1 oil per turn.

    So it's really not infrastructure as much as a backdoor army that happens to be a district on the map.

    **It's possible there might be a weird spot just before knights where the Hippo costs a little more than a chariot, but you weren't building chariots at that point anyways.
     
  11. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

    Joined:
    May 14, 2016
    Messages:
    7,532
    Location:
    Terok Nor
    Weren't the Bulgarians Bogomils? I know they had some degree of court sanction, but I'm not clear whether they were actually state supported.
     
  12. Pitohui

    Pitohui Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2019
    Messages:
    61
    Gender:
    Male
    Also,possible Byz Strategy:Invade with free Hippo Cavalry and loads of ranged units.Camp just outside their city’s range a little bit and let their units run into you,kill them with your archers/crossbow,spreading your religion,convert their cities,pick them off since their walls are irrelevant.Byzantium might not be in need of siege units which would make domination much more convienient=no more waiting 30 turns for your catapult to show up where you need it
     
  13. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    2,251
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Minnesota, USA
    Surely you wouldn't be evil enough to place a Tagma next to those Xbows for +4:c5rangedstrength:? You wouldn't do that to the enemies of the empire, would you?
     
  14. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir King

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2020
    Messages:
    671
    I would argue that China, around the same time Byzantium turned into a bureaucracy (Justinian and onwards), interestingly moved away from bureaucracy and went into an aristocracy; the bureaucratic China we know of only returned around late Medieval (also, interestingly, around the same time as Basil II's reign). But yes, besides the famous word "byzantine" there are a lot others who can compete with the bureaucratic civ. I think we can also add Persia into this list.
     
  15. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Idea Fountain

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,665
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Belgium
    Depends on the leader. The Council of Preslav ordered the conversion of the Boyar caste at Boris I's orders - a prudent choice since it would stop the infighting amongst their cavalry batalions. Simeon's rule relaxed this, but by then the upper classhad already been fully converted to Eastern Orthodoxy.

    So basically if Boris I leads a Bulgarian Civ their ability should be tied around forceful conversion (or some way to incentivize religious unit spamming). If anyone else leads, conversion should be more passive (similar to Byzantium's Taxis ability)
     
    8housesofelixir and Zaarin like this.
  16. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2017
    Messages:
    4,994
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Texas
    I do admit that I'm amused by the new slang we are using now: Hippo Cavalry
    Once you build a zoo it could turn into a reality. :lol:
     
  17. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    7,496
    Location:
    Europe, more or less
    So, if I get that right, this is power creep full in effect here. What a list of bonuses... Vanilla Civs can only dream about those. :)
     
    ezzlar likes this.
  18. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2010
    Messages:
    15,532
    I think he's leaning more into his religion victory than his dom victory with that agenda.

    He'll get mad at you for not having his religion, invade, and before you know it, you've got a nativity set in your living room and he's sending you Christmas cards.
     
    Kjimmet, Weraptor, Kimiimaro and 6 others like this.
  19. DogeEnricoDandolo

    DogeEnricoDandolo Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    349
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't think it will receive +10 on defense though, just imagine how insane the devs must be to let a ranged unit +10 on both offense and defense against all units. Still a super duper solid unit though.
     
  20. Basileus Rhomaion

    Basileus Rhomaion Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2017
    Messages:
    188
    Gender:
    Male
    Well, they did become Orthodox because of Byzantine influence in the first place which is kind of the point of the in-game bonuses: Put them under your influence and then subjugate them militarily (even though technically all the land held by Bulgaria at that point was in fact formerly Roman territory).

    The spread of Orthodoxy in Slavic Europe happened mainly through Byzantine missionary expeditions (Cyril and Methodius were both Roman monks from Thessalonica). Bulgaria's conquests were not religious in nature since basically all conquests outside former Byzantine (and therefore already Orthodox) territory never became part of the Byzantine/Orthodox sphere of influence. The only exception is Hungary which was put under Byzantine influence politically but not religiously by actual Byzantine military involvement in the Komnenian era. This is why the holy crown of St. Stephan is of Byzantine style and even has the imagery of emperor Michael Doukas (who sent it as a gift) on it.


    Sidenote: Is it just me or do the Byzantine abilities feel a bit cyclical? You spread your religion through military victories, but how do you ensure you have military supremacy? Why, by having converted them to your religion first of course. But how did you do that in the first place? By military victories. It feels a bit like Byzantium really wants to hit Medieval era and have access to their Tagma to even begin having any impact on the game, simply because each of their bonuses relies on either one pre-existing/having been achieved somehow beforehand.
     
    Uberfrog and Zaarin like this.

Share This Page