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[NFP] Byzantium & Gaul Pack (September 2020) - Patch Notes Discussion

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Laurana Kanan, Sep 24, 2020.

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  1. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    Entremont, just FYI, was the capital of the Salyes, a Gaulic-Ligurian (north Italian) confederation that was the first group outside of Italy to be conquered by the Romans, back around 120 - 123 BCE. Consequently, by the time of the the Gallic Wars it was already gone, replaced by a Roman city established near its site called Aquae Sextiae (modern Aix, or Aix-en-Provence).
    The archeological site is now known as Oppidum d'Entremont, because the original Gallic site was fortified in traditional Oppidum/Dunon style.
    I can see, then, why Civ 3 included it, since it was the first Gallic capital' the Romans encountered, but with Civ VI's use of distinctive Leaders associated with their own specific capitals, it would have to be replaced with a city or oppidum/dunon more contemporary with the well-known Gaulic leaders like Vercingetorix, Ambiorix, Dumnorix, etc, who were all important and significant almost three-quarters of a century after Entremont was abandoned.
     
  2. reddishrecue

    reddishrecue Deity

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    Oh no I made a mistake Im sorry. The celts had Cardiff in civ 2 and have Bibracte in civ 4 lol. I apologize. :p
     
  3. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Emperor

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    Vienna is absent, I presume, for the same reason why Prague, Pagan, Samarkand, Tondo, and Vijaya are not city states: they are already in scenarios and some principle or limitation is preventing the devs from adding it.

    That said, I think it should be added as a city-state, as should representatives of other past civs like Siam and Denmark. Seems fair.
     
  4. Lonecat Nekophrodite

    Lonecat Nekophrodite King

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    What are differences between Dunon (And is 'Dun' also used too? particuarly in Britain with many settlements have 'Dun' prefix, and Caer / Sarum?

    And who is Brennus in Civ3 by the way? Could he be ANY celtic king because the name is more of a title and less of an individual or what? Celts didn't seems to get the same leaders in different games. in Civ3 Brennus led celts, in Civ5 Boudica, in upcoming expansion they were called Gauls led by Ambiorix. seated in modern Belgium.
    Did they found Brussels too?

    And what's the best name of Celtic bronze age footsloggers (AKA Bronze Swordsmen)?
    1. Gaestatae (Naked Warror)
    2. Pictist Warrior (Best dressed)
    3. Gallic Warrior (in Civ4 they wield axes)
    4. Gallic Swordsman

    mmm and you toughts about Warrior in Antiquity where everyone begins with, and Swordsman that uses iron swords. Do you think there should be late antiquity upgrade for warrior to wield bronze slashing weapons? (Axemen in Civ4, Slasher in my tested mod but with balance ruined i decided to exclude them entirely)

    BronzeAge Swordsman.jpg BronzeAge Swordsman Egypt.jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
  5. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    In Civ 4 they were both available as leaders for the celts.
     
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  6. Narcisse

    Narcisse Warlord

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    Caer is old welsh language, it's a posterior usage comparing to -Dunon.
    I don't know if this image is enough accurate, but I think it give the idea :

    The most famous Brennus is the one which sacked Rome.
    No, you can't have any evident choice for ONE celtic king. Celtic terminology encompass a lot of different tribes, linguistic groups, relatively different cultures ,etc ...
    Even Ambiorix was just the half-king of the Eburones (a specific tribe in the Gallia Belgica), and no they didn't found Brussels.

    For celtic footsloggers, well I don't know if there is any "famous" names for them.
    By the way, you quoted units which are not considered as "Bronze Age", because the descriptions we have of them come mostly from Romans.
    And celtic poeple are well-knowed for their chainmail for exemple.
    Gaesatae and Galatian mercenaries were probably the more famous warband.
    Javelins footsloggers are probably the less represented in videogames, when they were rather important in gallic warfare.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
  7. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    Yeah, it irks me that they have Bibracte where the Helvetians were defeated by Julius Caesar, but not Aventia (Avenches), their capital in modern Switzerland, or any other of their towns. I guess I'll have to rename their list to include the four Swiss tribes myself :)
     
  8. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Idea Fountain

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    Can't speak for Caer, but Dúnn and Dunon both mean "walled settlement" in the respective languages. They're cognates.
     
  9. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Not sure what you mean but in Civ 2-5 the Celts were a blob civ which encompassed groups of people so they could choose a host of different leaders. Now they decided to focus on one particular group, Gaul, which attributes were frequently used in past games such as leaders and units. Funnily enough the most famous, Vercingetorix, still hasn't appeared in Civ at all.

    Even though Ambiorix lived in modern-day Belgium, the region was conquered by Rome and the current city of Brussels did not appear till the Middle Ages.

    I have a feeling that Copenhagen might eventually be a replacement for Lisbon, now that Venice is out of the running.
     
  10. Lonecat Nekophrodite

    Lonecat Nekophrodite King

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    ^ In Civ4 (Warlords Expansions) Dun replaces walls
    https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Dun_(Civ4)

    I'm talking about identity of Brennus who's leader of Celts in Civ 3 and 4. in one Civilopedia entry (can't remember which Civ games had Brennus entry). Brennus 'could be ANY king'

    Because Ambiorix himself and his domain is within Belgium territory i'm not sure how this city came to be. By Classical Era you cited that this city didn't yet exists. By then did the site that will become Brussels located below sea level?

    About settlements with 'Dun' prefix. Did Dunkirk a former Celtic city?



    @raen Will love this!
     
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  11. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I'm not sure about the identity of Brennus in the civ games, however there was one that attacked Rome and another that tried to invade and settle in mainland Greece.

    I'm sure the site was inhabited by people even if there wasn't a permanent settlement until the Middle Ages, which was past the time that Gaul existed.
     
  12. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

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    There's nothing stopping them from being included, there's no magical rule that prevents those city states from being included.

    I think they are largely avoiding filling up the city state with European ones and giving some more obscure ones in instead whenever they can. They also have to be cautious about the number of city states as they have to fill up an even number of city states for each type whenever they add new city states (and not just replacing them as was the case with Venice).

    It was surprising that Rise and Fall didn't add any new city states at all (apart from just replacing Amsterdam and Seoul).
     
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  13. Josephias

    Josephias Emperor

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    Here is the screenshot for you. I was wrong about the two shades of green for Amíborix. Second jersey is green on yellow. Basil plays with purple, yellow and red.

    NFP3jerseys.png
     
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  14. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    Here comes a 'catch-all' set of answers:

    Brussels: There is evidence (archeological) of settlement there since the Neolithic, but the earliest 'historical' note is from the 10th century CE, when it was a Frankish (Germanic) town called Bruocsella which has been translated as "Settlement in the marsh" - which is appropriate, at least. Who was there and what it might have been called earlier is simply unknown at this time - tomorrow some diligent excavator may dig up a buried Roman gravestone detailing in bad Latin some merchant's career trading with the named inhabitants in 200 BCE, but I'm not holding my breath.

    Bronze Age Warriors:
    Bronze is far better than Copper as a tool/weapon metal, but not that much better. For weapons, it makes hard spearpoints, axe blades, and weighted clubs/maces, but any sword of bronze more than about 50cm (18 - 24 inches) long will bend very quickly, and most bronze 'swords' found in excavations have been more like long daggers than real swords.
    From various frescos, stele, carved relief walls, etc the typical bronze age warriors, then, were armed with short straight or curved bladed weapons, long or medium-length handled axes, or spears - including pikes held in both hands. In every case, having an entire panoply of bronze armor, helmet, and weapons was very rare - the stuff was too expensive, since copper and tin were both required and almost inevitably one or both had to be imported, sometimes from 100s of kilometers away (tin from Afghanistan, Spain, or the British Isles to the eastern Mediterranean/Mesopotamia, for instance). That means only the 'nobility' or a small percentage of the army would be armed and armored completely. Homer's Illiad shows this, since it depicts Bronze Age Greek practice: a few 'Heroes' with all the bronze trimmings, a mass of near-nameless followers with spears, javelins, lots of leather and wood and, it is obvious even in this 'heroic' tale, not always a lot of enthusiasm for playing Target to the other side's Heroes.
    The most common warriors shown, therefore, are Spearmen (pre-dynastic Egypt), pikemen (Sumer), or axe/short curved sword men (Syria/Canaan, very similar to your second warrior shown, @Lonecat Nekophrodite)

    Gallic Warriors:
    Here we are talking Iron Age, because that's when Gallic metal-working technology really leads the way. The Hallstadt Culture seems to have invented both the long wrought-iron slashing/stabbing sword (72cm or 32 inches long or longer) and link mail armor, both Huge advances on the bronze weapons and armor that preceded them. Again, though, it's hard to tell what percentage of the Gallic armies actually wore link mail: by hand, the stuff is extremely labor-intensive, since first you have to manufacture meters of wire and then bend and fasten the wire 'links' together. Significantly, the Roman Army didn't adopt link mail to replace the lorica segmenta until Imperial Times, when they had virtual armor-making factories set up in northern Italy with hundreds of workers hammering out the metal.
    Because of the notorious speed of Gallic attacks (in Caesar) and their ability to move through rough country (also in Caesar) I suspect the bulk of Gallic warriors were unarmored or leather-armored spearmen or swordsmen, and based on better-attested practice among the related Celtiberians in Spain, throwing javelins before or as they charged to help break up the enemy line before they hit - a practice the Romans adopted with their pilum, along with their famous short sword, the gladius from the Spanish Celts they fought before Caesar's conquest of Gaul.

    I also suspect that a large percentage, possibly the majority, of the well-armed and armored Gallic 'nobility' were mounted. Polybius gives a figure of 50,000 foot and 20,000 cavalry for a Gallic Army invading Italy in the 3rd century BCE, a far higher percentage of cavalry than in any of the 'civilized' states in Italy, Greece or Carthage, and the Romans were so impressed by Gallic cavalry that they recruited a lot of the Imperial auxiliary cavalry units from the Gauls, and in the Imperial service they are almost always shown wearing link mail shirts and carrying long swords - which the Romans also adopted for their auxiliary infantry and cavalry as the spatha . The Romans also adopted a sturdy saddle from the Gauls, emphasizing the superiority of Gallic cavalry and general horse-useage over the Romans . . .

    Therefore, if I were (at gunpoint!) required to come up with a Historical set of UUs for Gaul, I would be tempted to advance one of two types or both:
    a 'standard' Swordsman replacement with a bonus in attack (Furor Gallicus) and extra mobility in forest. Trousers are very appropriate for these, since the 'trousered Gauls' were almost a cliche in Roman depictions. By the way, there is no evidence that the Gauls included 'women warriors' in any depiction by their Roman enemies, who certainly would have noticed any such thing. Later, in the British Isles, there is evidence of women as warriors (and instructors of warriors) in both Briton and Celtic societies, but not, as far as I know, on the continent.
    a Horseman replacement, the Soldurii or 'oath-sworn' retainers of the nobility with extra combat factor in attack or defense and the ability to fight at full strength even when damaged (similar to the Samurai) because, according to Roman writers, they were sworn to never abandon their leader and if necessary never survive him in battle.

    Based on the Gallic society as depicted by Romans and Greeks, which is dangerous because they were writing from a very prejudiced viewpoint of their own, I would also advance some other potential Gaul Civ Uniques:
    Nematon or Nemadun - a 'sacred grove' replacement for the Holy Site District. Must be built on Forest tile, but as both a worship site and training ground for Druidic scholars, provides Religious. Cultural, and Influence points (Druids are described as having schooling in sciences, diplomacy, languages, astrology and politics as well as the Gallic religion)
    Dunon - similar to the current Oppidum in being a Fortified 'Industrial' site, but I'd be tempted to also allow one to add an extra point per turn of any Minable resource the city is extracting to reflect more specifically the Gauls' pre-eminence in metal working.
     
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  15. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Emperor

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    Except none of the scenario CS's, despite being good candidates, have been added as full CS's.

    I speculate one of two explanations for this. Either there is a coding issue where the scenario city states are somehow classified the same way as full city-states and the devs have to avoid duplicates. Or, no such coding limitation exists, and the devs simply don't care about adding scenario city-states to the main game because they think having them in scenarios is "good enough".

    I only listed one European city-state. The rest are from Asia, and I think your impression is flat out wrong when we have three Italian city states and two British city states, on top of some five-ish other European city states. By contrast, East Asia has nothing on the mainland continent--if that was what the devs were actually doing, we wouldn't have non-CS's like Cardiff and Bologna while there are no city states between India, Khmer, and China.
     
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  16. Narcisse

    Narcisse Warlord

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    About possible Gaul unique, we have found a lot of Sanctuaries ("enclos sacré" in french) inside multiple gallic Oppidium. It was most of the time the most important structure of these fortified cities, with a lot of columns for the one which was found in Corent for exemple, apparently a lot of sacrifices (objects, weapons, blood, animals).And with the supposition than different warfare objects as Carnyx or Standard-bearer had a sacral role : they were probably tidy up in these sanctuaries, when gallic poeple were not in war.
    There is a lot of reconstitutitons, drawings, plans about these sanctuaries. And they continued to exist in the gallo-roman architecture because really important for these poeple.
     
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  17. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I don't know any specifics but that shouldn't be a problem as Athens is a city-state in the Alexander Scenario, where as it's a capital in the main game.

    Either way in Pack 4 we are going to get at least 6 more new city-states and I would be surprised if we didn't get at least one from East Asia and maybe another for Europe.
     
  18. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Idea Fountain

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    Dunkirk was a Flemish city that later became a part of France. The "Dun" in its name refers to dunes, not some Celtic root for walls.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
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  19. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    As Byzantines I defeated enough units to convert a city, which I then conquered. When I conquered it, it lost my religion. Is that normal?
     
  20. Lonecat Nekophrodite

    Lonecat Nekophrodite King

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    Byzantium returned to Civ4 symbol (XP / Chi Ro), while Gaul simply used their shield.
     

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