Byzantium UA overpowered?

[Harv72b]

Yeah, Byzantium's UA is extremely underwhelming once you move past Prince difficulty. It's nice having that extra belief, absolutely, but with no unique anything to help you get that religion, it's often pretty pointless.

It's sorta like if they'd given Carthage a start bias of as far away from water as possible.

 

[chazzycat]

Play on a high difficulty where founding a religion is MUCH harder, and then come back and tell us Byzantium if overpowered.....have fun when your religion is likely to either be nonexistent or is comprised of all the beliefs the AI left on the scrap heap.

its not too hard to get a pretty good religion on immortal if you get a little lucky with a good faith-producing pantheon, natural wonder, or nearby religious CS. the AI is kind of random when it comes to picking the best beliefs first as well...often there are good ones left on the "scrap heap". Deity is another story though, I think you'd have to rely on the UUs a lot more.

 

[Lyoncet]

...if you get a little lucky...

There it is.

 

[chazzycat]

true, but it's not like it's the only UA that needs a little luck from the map.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Byzantium pretty much has to invest heavily in faith early to actually get a religion in order to use its power. So that involves one of the following:

1)Getting a faith-producing pantheon, which requires you to build a shrine ASAP, to actually be able to take advantage of one of them, and to actually get it.

2) Build Stonehenge, which becomes increasingly difficult as you go up difficulty levels. On Emperor, at least, it requires a capital with at least decent hammer potential(including a few forests for chopping) and prioritizing teching to Calendar(which, depending on your start, may be an entirely useless tech in the near-term other than unlocking Stonehenge). You'll probably still need to build a shrine if you want an early pantheon

3) Luck into being near a faith-generating natural wonder, or any natural wonder and manage to get One With Nature(which isn't a high-priority belief)

4) Build the Hagia Sophia. Of course, this requires getting to Theology relatively quickly and actually building the wonder, which isn't anything to write home about other than the free prophet. You'll likely be founding one of the last religions if you manage to build it.

5) Get a free great prophet from completing the Liberty policy tree.
Liberty may not even be your best policy option, and then there's the opportunity cost of taking a prophet instead of an engineer or scientist. Alternatively, you could take a GE and rush-build the Hagia Sophia.

However, the AI doesn't seem to value tithe or itinerant preachers very highly, so it's actually decently likely they'll both still be available if you found a religion late. You're likely to miss out on many of the better follower beliefs though.

 

[compwiz1202]

uh...what? Play without their ability to see their ability isn't powerful? Good call, but first I'm going to play as Wu Zetian and delete all my great generals as I get them. Also I'm gonna run a game as Rome and build no buildings.

/eyeroll

And be sure to only attack once with Chu-Ko-Nu then end their turn

 

[afedyuki]

This, pretty much. If anything, the Byzantium is underpowered at high difficulty levels as it becomes difficult to even found a religion, let alone get decent beliefs.

Play on a high difficulty where founding a religion is MUCH harder, and then come back and tell us Byzantium if overpowered.....have fun when your religion is likely to either be nonexistent or is comprised of all the beliefs the AI left on the scrap heap.

 

[cman2010]

I have to laugh at all these threads that pop up saying this civ or that civ is to overpowered. The funny thing about some of the civs being mentioned as to overpowered is that they seem to be just average or in this case below average. Try playing with Polynesia they can embark and move across oceans with there first warrior, or give siam or persia a try.

 

[Lord_Azazel]

When I go religion I always go for stonehenge, and 30% farther reach, if it is a terra or pangaea map, my religion has like 80-90% of the cities. No need for the 34% faster spread, though I guess this would happen faster. Though I play King so might be different on harder difficulties.

 

[kiwimaster]

Byzantium really, really needs a unique building producing faith instead of getting 2 UU which are very situational.

 

[Optional]

I like Byzantium for their units, the Dromon is a lot more useful than the ordinary trireme and has a better upgrade path. The Cataphract loses what's good about it when upgraded, but it's an alright unit within its time frame and I like it.
The UA is what I like least about Byzantium. Your opinion about it will depend on a great deal on how much you find religion benefits you. I personally don't find it strong in challenging games, as there's quite an investment needed to get a lot out of it. If you're in a hard game you begin to doubt whether you should have invested so much in religion; maybe you should have invested in your empire directly.

When you're already powerful, religion will be the icing on the cake, but what when you're struggling? There's the +30% ranged combat strength for cities, this one can make a real difference to a fledgling empire under pressure, I concede, but which other belief will make you turn the corner when under pressure?
And the best pantheons are quite popular with the AI, from what I see. That matters, because they're more situation dependent. Later beliefs are more generic, there I'm less picky and generally happy with what's left in the pool. But whatever later beliefs you pick, they won't have an instant effect on your game. The faith counter will be empty again and you need to be playing a good game outwith religion to replenish. Religion will often just follow in the slipstream of your game, it won't pull your game. So therefore I don't think religion is very strong and that affects my opinion about the Byzantine UA.

 

[Zezima]

Personally, I try to avoid spreading my religion to other civs because I don't want them to have my bonuses. Unless you are using one of the beliefs that gives bonuses only for other civs following your religion (which is never for me).

 

[akashsara]

Byzanthium...OP?
...Yeah you know what, I think that with this topic, I've seen EVERY Civ in the game be called OP. Byzanthium was the last missing one.

I think you missed India too.

 

[Gucumatz]

Some people used to call India OP . Not since many patches/GK though.

 

[sufficiency]

Far from it. Byzantium is easily one of the weakest civs in the game.

I think they will be more playable if they also have 50% bonus on constructing shrines and temples.

 

[Gucumatz]

Far from it. Byzantium is easily one of the weakest civs in the game.

I think they will be more playable if they also have 50% bonus on constructing shrines and temples.

Yea - The above should be a definite add on to the Byzantine UA. Its too weak as it stands. Or another potential add-on, Religious buildings have 50% building and maintenance costs.

 

[tetley]

I've always considered Byzantium way UP, unless you can get a lucky starting location where you can combine a faith-generating belief (like Stone Circles) with Holy Warriors. Or down on Prince where you can get +2 faith/wonder and you are guaranteed a religion.

 

[SYahoo]

Often overlooked, the ability to take an additional founder belief can be chosen from beliefs that other civ's have already taken.

 

[Browd]

Really? Didn't think that was the case. Cries out for a test.

 

[Browd]

Often overlooked, the ability to take an additional founder belief can be chosen from beliefs that other civ's have already taken.

Really? Didn't think that was the case. Cries out for a test.

This didn't sound right, so I fired up a new game with Byz. Celts were first to found, and took Ceremonial Burial as their founder belief and Cathedrals as their follower. Byz founded a few turns later.

When selecting Byz's Founder, Follower and Bonus Belief, neither Ceremonial Burial nor Cathedrals was available.