Byzantium

[Enrico Swagolo]

Well, just go try it for yourself. I tried it, I got my reformation belief up by 2nd tech in medieval, and I pumped out GPs every 5 turns afterwards for 2 full eras. It felt downright dirty. I can’t possibly be the only one to have given Byzantium a shot in the past month since the Borobudur and Byz changes, can I?

And no, they absolutely do not stack to a comparable degree. At best, they save you a turn or two of set-up at the beginning. 15% discount does not make much difference if all you need is 800 to get 4 faith buildings which all generate on their own. I didn't even go that route in my last game, and by early renaissance I had >300 PER TURN. Giving the civ with the single highest generation in the game a further 15% purchase discount is completely overstacked.

By mid-medieval, you are desperate for a hole to throw all your faith generation into. The only 2 beliefs which facilitate that are GP purchase and unit purchase. If you have zealotry, you don't need to the glory of god, because you have a faith sink

EDIT: once again, I will reiterate. It has been more than a month since this change, and I’m the only one who has reported back on a playthrough. I cant productively debate these changes with a gaggle of armchair theorists.

Go play new Byzantium. Until then, I have made my report, and I suggest 5 possible changes:

1. Scrap the new bonuses entirely and walk away.
   • The AI can't plan and exploit Byzantium like a human can. That's just what it is. If it doesn't test well in AI games it doesn't mean the civ is broken. Unless you are designing this game specifically so robots can play it without human interaction, then "This is a solution looking for a problem".
2. Scrap the 15% discount and increase base Basilica faith to 4
   • If Byzantium needs more faith then give them more faith; don't step on India's toes. Pure generation is Byzantium’s jam.
   • The 15% discount synergizes too well with fealty opener
3. Hard-lock 'To the Glory of God' so Byzantium can’t abuse it before industrial
4. Think of a different secondary UA bonus
5. Think of a different non-UA bonus; buff the UB or UU instead:
   • make basilica purchaseable with faith, like Mission, so it can be used to sink faith, and buff sacred sites
   • restore Cataphract back to the full 4 moves

I did play Byzantium a few times after the change despite what you say and I disagree. I went my favoured Authority>Fealty>Imperialism route with Zealotry, but I still see how other playstyles will benefit. Sacred Sites will get access to their GPs eariler, less cost might not be that much late game but earlier it will cut off a turn or two from each building. It might not be as big of a benefit, but it still helps. You get your benefits a few turns earlier and can buy GPs you have access to earlier. That, or just get another Holy Site. I see no issue when Byzantium's the civ that can always ensure they get another faith sink or even two.

 

[pineappledan]

For future consideration, telling another player their argument is invalid because they haven't played the civ is built on the presumption that the only logical outcome is yours if one plays the civ. I don't think that's fair.

That's a bit uncharitable of an interpretation. I could uncharitably interpret your comment as tone policing.

I did play Byzantium a few times after the change despite what you say and I disagree. I went my favoured Authority>Fealty>Imperialism route with Zealotry, but I still see how other playstyles will benefit. Sacred Sites will get access to their GPs eariler, less cost might not be that much late game but earlier it will cut off a turn or two from each building. It might not be as big of a benefit, but it still helps. You get your benefits a few turns earlier and can buy GPs you have access to earlier. That, or just get another Holy Site. I see no issue when Byzantium's the civ that can always ensure they get another faith sink or even two.

They do not benefit enough. Of course they benefit some, but the new bonuses disproportionately favour the Fealty and TtGoG over other potential strategies, and that is
a) hostile to the AI, and
b) limits the civ to fewer 'viable' strategies

I agree that Byzantium benefits from a faith sink. Having GP unlocks earlier is a nice enough idea on paper, but only if the To the Glory of God belief is changed so that Byz can't simply mill endless GPs as soon as they reform. It's too much too fast.

1a) The Sacred Sites strategy is patently NOT a faith-sink. There is a finite amount of buildings you can buy, and they leave you with even more faith generation afterwards.

• Each building costs 120 with fealty opener.
• You get 3 buildings + monasteries = 480 per city.
• 4 Faith buildings generate 7-9 per turn, which pays back the faith cost in <69 turns.

Not a faith sink.

1b) Further, I argue that Sacred Sites strategy is done; it's not viable anymore. To the Glory of God does Sacred Site's job better anyways.

• Guaranteed historic event every 5 turns with TtGoG
• Sacred Sites generates 12-15 per city per turn (3 x 4 buildings x 5 turns = 60, 72 after hotels)*.
• Historic events can pop for 100+ easily enough, if you've done a bit of investment in culture, and you can always just buy more Artists/Writers/Musicians for GWs to get it up too.

In raw , Sacred sites outstrips TtGotG, especially on a wide empire, but it's static while Historic Events scale more, and there's a lot more benefits to the extra GPs (extra GWs, lots of tiles, reliable wonder rushing, free extra luxuries on demand, synergies with policies and WC motions, instant yields from GPs, etc.)

2) Byzantium's poor AI performance and the Church nerf were the catalysts for this recent buff. Borobodur has restored the spread strategy, and the 15% has only a minor impact on a missionary spread strategy. Missionaries are incredibly cheap. With Fealty opener you can buy 1 missionary per turn rather quickly. If you go pacifism instead of taking a second founder, you can buy missionaries for 60. You don't need a 15% discount, it's a 30 discount, it's immaterial.

3) All this is ignores another point:

• Byzantium's main strength is its high generation from Basilica.
• This new UA makes each point of 15% stronger.

If you want Byzantium to have 15% more , why not just give Byz 15% more ? Why do we have 2 abilities that accomplish the same thing? Why not just buff the Basilica's yields a little higher?

*Ignore the 4 on Stupas after Architecture for this point. You can get that without Sacred Sites, so it's not relevant.

EDIT: structured my thoughts a little better.

 

[Gazebo]

I did play Byzantium a few times after the change despite what you say and I disagree. I went my favoured Authority>Fealty>Imperialism route with Zealotry, but I still see how other playstyles will benefit. Sacred Sites will get access to their GPs eariler, less cost might not be that much late game but earlier it will cut off a turn or two from each building. It might not be as big of a benefit, but it still helps. You get your benefits a few turns earlier and can buy GPs you have access to earlier. That, or just get another Holy Site. I see no issue when Byzantium's the civ that can always ensure they get another faith sink or even two.

That's a bit uncharitable of an interpretation. I could uncharitably interpret your comment as tone policing.

Not tone policing - just letting you know that the assumption that your conclusions are the inevitable outcome of playing byzantium is countered by Enrico, so it's something to consider.

G

 

[pineappledan]

Not tone policing - just letting you know that the assumption that your conclusions are the inevitable outcome of playing byzantium is countered by Enrico, so it's something to consider.

All he has said is that he plays domination Byzantium with Zealotry, which I have agreed on multiple occasions is totally viable:

There are at least 4 strategies which are mutually exclusive. Maybe 5 if you consider 3/4 UC
- Zealotry domination
- GP expend instant yields focus and faith purchase GPs
- [3 other old Byz strategies]

The new bonus only benefits the first 2 strategies in any meaningful way.

By mid-medieval, you are desperate for a hole to throw all your faith generation into. The only 2 beliefs which facilitate that are GP purchase and unit purchase. If you have zealotry, you don't need to the glory of god, because you have a faith sink

The -15% on faith purchase has made the Deus vult build stronger as well. God-ball hasn't made Deus vult worse, but God-ball feels more like some sort of Konami code, while deus vult feels more like an actual strategy.

I fail to see how Enrico has refuted any of my arguments by playing 1 of the 2 builds that I called viable?

That also ignores all my other arguments re. the missionary spread, sacred site strategies, and alternative for the faith discount

 

[ElliotS]

the 15% has only a minor impact on a missionary spread strategy.

What? It's literally a 15% increase in efficiency. I don't see how you could argue otherwise.

Sacred sites sucks, but it always sucked and that's not new or unique. I think we need to hash that one out in balance, not Byzantium.

 

[Han_YOLO]

After reading about the power of Glory of God, I attempted the so-called "God Ball" strategy several times. I'm certainly not the world's best player, particularly with Tradition, but I win regularly on Emperor. I tested several games on Emperor and was really only able to get an OP-level God Ball going maybe 1/3 of the time (played to Renaissance in about 6 games). In the successful games, I had a good combination of circumstances, the most important being as follows: (1) decent food and production for capital and satellite so I could prioritize religion early without sacrificing much; (2) defensible territory; (3) only one close-by neighbor that was able to pose a military threat (until my humble 4 city tradition empire humiliated them before the world); and (4) only one close-by competitive religion. God Ball is not very helpful when you're trying to convince Genghis Khan and Harald that your pathetic empire is not worth their efforts. In addition, its faith production is inhibited if you have limited food (faith per population) or competitive close-by religions (culture/faith per GP expend for # of foreign followers - may not be getting that belief quite right). In addition, I find one of the best ways to really piss off a religious neighbor is to compete with their religion.

When I was able to get it going, I agree that it is extremely powerful. Nevertheless, I think a strategy is only truly OP if it works the majority of the time regardless of starting circumstances, and I don't think the God Ball rises to that level. I've been playing some combination of vanilla Civ 5 and this mod for 5 years now (woah) and have always wanted to like Byzantium. With the most recent changes, Byzantium is finally in a good place.

That said, if there is a consensus that Glory of God is OP with Byzantium, I think the easiest fix would be to lock or split the Fealty faith discount behind the second policy. Doing so would force Byzantium to choose between Fealty and Artistry. Further, it would slow the spread of early founders and give late founders a shot at becoming dominant religion.

 

[tu_79]

I don't mind to have some tutorial civs. Byzantium being the learning what religious beliefs can do for you, even if it ends up not being very historical. They have their Cataphract to improve defense in middle ages already.

Pineappledan makes a serious claim, that only two strategies are valid for Byzantium, sinking faith points in Zealotry or in TtGoG. I think this calls for a massive testing during a couple of weeks, to see if there are really no other ways to play it proficiently in current iteration.

By the way, to the Glory of God was tuned down recently, wasn't it?

 

[Stalker0]

I don't mind to have some tutorial civs. Byzantium being the learning what religious beliefs can do for you, even if it ends up not being very historical. They have their Cataphract to improve defense in middle ages already.

Pineappledan makes a serious claim, that only two strategies are valid for Byzantium, sinking faith points in Zealotry or in TtGoG. I think this calls for a massive testing during a couple of weeks, to see if there are really no other ways to play it proficiently in current iteration.

By the way, to the Glory of God was tuned down recently, wasn't it?

The plan is that the next VP competition will be with Byzantium. That should give a number of people to try them out under control conditions, and we can see what strategies were viable there.

 

[pineappledan]

What if Basilica gave 3 for every 4? ie 0.75/, up from 0.5/

a 25% increase in the faith scaling would be an overall increase of <25% when you account for other sources of faith (ie. pantheon, base faith from shrines/temples/wonders)

With that change, you could scrap the 15% discount on faith purchases.

Spoiler the math :

((shrine+boosted Basilica)*# Cities) + (Grande Temple + Tradition policy) + 0.33* from Ancestor Worship + 0.50* from Basilica
((shrine+boosted Basilica)*# Cities) + (Grande Temple + Tradition policy) + 0.33* from Ancestor Worship + 0.75* from Basilica

# Cities = 5
= 10 per city = (10*5) = 50

((2+5)*5)+(6+3) + (0.33*50) + (0.50*50) = 85.5
((2+5)*5)+(6+3) + (0.33*50) + (0.75*50) = 98.0

98/85.5 -1 = 15% increase in

So, a 25% increase in the basilica scaler would result in exactly a 15% increase in overall faith, less if you go wider (more faith from base buildings, less from pop scaler), more if you go taller, and less/more depending on the contribution of your pantheon. I chose Ancestor worship because it's a popular choice for Byz and it's a solid predictable bonus.

 

[ElliotS]

What if Basilica gave 3 for every 4? ie 0.75/, up from 0.5/

a 25% increase in the faith scaling would be an overall increase of <25% when you account for other sources of faith (ie. pantheon, base faith from shrines/temples/wonders)

With that change, you could scrap the 15% discount on faith purchases.

Spoiler the math :

((shrine+boosted Basilica)*# Cities) + (Grande Temple + Tradition policy) + 0.33* from Ancestor Worship + 0.50* from Basilica
((shrine+boosted Basilica)*# Cities) + (Grande Temple + Tradition policy) + 0.33* from Ancestor Worship + 0.75* from Basilica

# Cities = 5
= 10 per city = (10*5) = 50

((2+5)*5)+(6+3) + (0.33*50) + (0.50*50) = 85.5
((2+5)*5)+(6+3) + (0.33*50) + (0.75*50) = 98.0

98/85.5 -1 = 15% increase in

So, a 25% increase in the basilica scaler would result in exactly a 15% increase in overall faith, less if you go wider (more faith from base buildings, less from pop scaler), more if you go taller, and less/more depending on the contribution of your pantheon. I chose Ancestor worship because it's a popular choice for Byz and it's a solid predictable bonus.

The only change I would support as of now is to restrict buying from Glory of God until industrial, if any.

 

[Gazebo]

The only change I would support as of now is to restrict buying from Glory of God until industrial, if any.

That's a reasonable request, but does it nerf Byzzy into the ground? She doesn't overperform in AI games.

G

 

[pineappledan]

That's a reasonable request, but does it nerf Byzzy into the ground? She doesn't overperform in AI games.

What proportion of AI games does Byzantium pick TtGoG? AI games aren't likely to be a reliable indicator for this kind of thing, are they?

 

[Stalker0]

That's a reasonable request, but does it nerf Byzzy into the ground? She doesn't overperform in AI games.

G

If nerfing just one belief suddenly crushes Byz, than that suggests it is too reliant on that as a strategy.

 

[Gazebo]

What proportion of AI games does Byzantium pick TtGoG? AI games aren't likely to be a reliable indicator for this kind of thing, are they?

If nerfing just one belief suddenly crushes Byz, than that suggests it is too reliant on that as a strategy.

It was a rhetorical question that I don't know the answer to. Thus my query.

G

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

That's a reasonable request, but does it nerf Byzzy into the ground? She doesn't overperform in AI games.

G

AI doesn't know what it's doing, it can go God-King into two 1 yield for 2 beliefs and then take Churches because she really wants others to have a part of her UA for free. I don't know if it's needed even for humans though, it should be compared to optimal Arabia play knowing Arabia also gets yields per spawn and stuff from heroic events as well as that they can get their Faith guys too, just later.

 

[Txurce]

The plan is that the next VP competition will be with Byzantium. That should give a number of people to try them out under control conditions, and we can see what strategies were viable there.

I think this is the way to go. That is, wait for more testing before making fixes. Byzantium is consistently a leader in my games now, but not OP -- so it can wait.

 

[ElliotS]

That's a reasonable request, but does it nerf Byzzy into the ground? She doesn't overperform in AI games.

G

I think that it nerfs players more than the AI, because God-Ball isn't as easy for the AI.

Furthermore the fact that the player can still get yields from great people and purchase their policy-given great people means that the delay won't hose this strategy at all.

I mean Glory of God is powerful for many civs, and Byz would still get it better and more consistently.

 

[pineappledan]

I think that it nerfs players more than the AI, because God-Ball isn't as easy for the AI.

Furthermore the fact that the player can still get yields from great people and purchase their policy-given great people means that the delay won't hose this strategy at all.

I mean Glory of God is powerful for many civs, and Byz would still get it better and more consistently.

Agreed. Though I would say that God-ball is all but impossible for the AI. The chances of AI picking TtGoG are low; the chances of them picking TtGoG/Sainthood/Ceremonial Burial are almost 0.

TgGoG would still be a very high-value reformation for Byz even if locked at Industrial. They have more faith, (ergo more GP purchases), than any other civ, but they will just have to wait till industrial like everyone else. If they still can purchase the GPs from policy unlocks until then, then I don't even think it will be missed.

It's more like closing a loophole than a nerf.

 

[CppMaster]

Agreed. Though I would say that God-ball is all but impossible for the AI. The chances of AI picking TtGoG are low; the chances of them picking TtGoG/Sainthood/Ceremonial Burial are almost 0.

TgGoG would still be a very high-value reformation for Byz even if locked at Industrial. They have more faith, (ergo more GP purchases), than any other civ, but they will just have to wait till industrial like everyone else. If they still can purchase the GPs from policy unlocks until then, then I don't even think it will be missed.

It's more like closing a loophole than a nerf.

It would be great for a mod mod to set custom belief flavors for certain civs. Like Byz could always try to get TtGoG/Sainthood/Ceremonial Burial first and other beliefs second.

 

[CrazyG]

You can get a pretty much infinite great person loop using Glory of God without playing Byzantium (or anyone with extra faith at all).

TgGoG is a really good belief. When going for tourism I always take this instead of the tourism boosters; I think you get more tourism from the extra historic events than you would from things like a holy site spam (and without question you are getting more of other things). I often choose it when I'm like 100 turns from the industrial era, its only balanced because its competition does things immediately.

When great people purchases are available early, like its just so good, why am I picking other beliefs? Specifically for Byz I just don't think there are reasons to use other strategies. And if you don't have either TgGoG or zealotry, what are you even spending the faith on? You have so much of it, monasteries or other buildings aren't enough to sink it all.