C2C: Children Of Dharma (Brainstorming)

[hotrodlincoln]

This is me just working out some ideas for a C2C scenario. The game would focus solely on India, as a RFC style mod developed out of a C2C base. Currently, here is a list of proposed civs, in a rough order in which they would show up. This is 33 proper civs, with 10, perhaps more, as "Independent" civs, which would disappear and reappear from time to time as various smaller kingdoms, republics, migrations, and uprisings. Any ideas others might have would be welcome. I originally intended to include Southeast Asia on this map as well, but I think that would be too many civs. Keep in mind, that these civs would not exist concurrently with one another. The classical and Medieval eras would be the busiest, but even then, there would be perhaps 10 proper civs on the map with a scattering of independents. I may choose to expand the civ list later, as we can have up to 50, or even more with DLL edits.

To clear up some of the bracketed notes, "Invasion Events" are civs that are not Indian in origin, and are typically designed to be short-lived crisises to the civs of India, though you are welcome to play these civs. "Colonization Events" are not as violent as Invasion events (Except of course, for the British).

Prehistoric
----
Indus Valley Civilization
----
Ancient
-----
Harappan (Indus Valley Civilization, renamed)
Vedic Civilization
(Perhaps have something to represent the 16 Mahajanapada kingdoms)
Achaemenid Persia (Invasion Event)
-----
Classical
----
Greeks (Alexander The Great) (Invasion Event)
Mauryan Empire
Satavahana Dynasty
Kharavelan Empire
Cholan Dynasty
Kushan Empire
Gupta Empire (May simply have this be a renamed Mauryan empire, to save a civ slot)
----
Early Medieval
----
Gurjara-Pratihara Empire
Pala Empire
Kharavelan Empire
Cholan Dynasty
Rashtrakuta Dynasty
Chauhuan Rajput Dynasty
Solanki Rajput Dynasty
----
Late Medieval
----
Bahmani Sultanate
Deccan Sultanate
Vijaynagara
Delhi Sultanate (Invasion Event)
Timurid Empire (Big Invasion Event)
Portuguese Empire (Colonization Event)
----
Rennaisance
----
Mughal Empire
Maratha Empire
Sikh Empire
French Empire (Colonization Event)
Danish Empire (Colonization Event, Maybe)
British East India Company
Burmese (Invasion Event)
----
Industrial
----
British Raj (British East India Company, renamed)
----
Modern
-----
British Raj
Japanese Empire (Invasion Event, if Burma is included on the map)
Pakistan (Independence Event)
India (Independence Event)
Bangladesh (Later Independence Event)

Other
----
10 "Independent" Factions to represent various republics, smaller kingdoms, and uprisings in Indian history

 

[Thunderbrd]

Cool concept! I don't have much I can contribute but I'll be watching with interest

 

[strategyonly]

HUH, i was just working on India, i put in three new workers (ancient/medival/modern) to make-up for the Fast Worker not being there anymore(But i can't put them in till the NEW FPK's are going in). I can do more units if you like??

 

[hotrodlincoln]

More units will likely be necessary, as I will want to make things more India-specific, but no hurry. I'm just trying to get ideas down on paper right now. Here's a basic idea of how I want gameplay to go.

Prehistoric-Ancient
---
Start the game as the Indus Valley's original inhabitants, as they become one of mankind's earliest true civilizations. As the Indus Valley Civilization begins to fade away and their cities lie empty, take control of the Vedic Aryans, as they lay the groundwork for Indian society as we know it. Here, Hinduism first arises and the caste system first comes into being. The Vedas are penned, starting off India's great tradition of literature.

Mahajanapada Era
----
Here the game changes. You no longer control abstract civilizations, but true governing bodies. 16 kingdoms and republics stretch across India, from Gandhara in the west, to Anga in the east. Take control of the Magadha kingdom, as they lead their people through this turning point in India history. Nurture the growth of the new religions, Buddhism and Jainism, or nurture the evolution of Hinduism. Leave Magadha a strong kingdom, ready for Chandragupta Maurya to take control and lead India's first great empire.

Classical
----
As the rest of the world advances, so too does India. Foreigners begin to arrive at India's gates, bringing with them their models of governance, inspiring the rise of India's first empires. Lead the Mauryans, the first people to rule a united India. Fight with Chandragupta Maurya, one of history's greatest military minds. Stand with Asoka Maurya as he stands at the crossroads of his life; Continue as a bloodthirsty conquerer, or become a man of peace; a builder, or a destroyer? Your actions will decide the fate of India.

---
Early Medieval
---

Now India is home to many great and powerful kingdoms. The Cholans in the south, the longest lived of all Indian dynasties stands poised to expand into the north. The Pala Empire is ready to continue the legacy of Asoka Maurya, to rule a strong, unified, and Buddhist India. The princes of Northern India, the Rajputs, exert great military power. In the southwest, the Rashtrakutas prove themselves to be great builders, great writers, and great artists, and under their rule, Jains flourish. Decide the fate of India in this turbulent time.

---
Late Medieval
---
The rise of Islam in the west sent many Zoroastrians and others fleeing to India. Now the Muslims themselves have arrived, answering only to themselves, and Allah. In the south, Vijaynagara fiercely resists the muslim onslaught. As the northerners settle in under the rule of the Delhi Sultanate, something far worse awaits them. From the west arrives the fearsome Timur, who's armies slew 5% of the world's population in our time. Can the terrible army be stopped? Will Delhi be spared the deaths of hundreds of thousands? Only you can decide.

---
Rennaisance
---

Foreigners no longer, the muslim descendants of Timur rule the North, as the Mughal Empire. The Sikh religion has arisen in the Northwest, with it's followers ready to fight and die to defend their faith, and the faiths of all others. Europeans have begun to arrive on India's shores. Do they arrive in peace, or war? Only time may tell. Control the Mughals, Marathas, or Sikhs as they navigate this ominous time, or side with the Europeans as they add another land to their great colonial empires.

----
Industrial
----

The British East India Company has been successful beyond their wildest imaginings. They now control India- at least in theory. Many of the people in India disagree, and fighting against their rule continues unabated. Will there be peace and stability in India at last, or will blood continue to mar this sacred, spiritual land?

---
Modern
---
The deadliest war in human history has arrived. The British Raj must succeed against the ruthless Japanese army, even as the natives begin to grow restless. Independence movements arise. Some, like Gandhi, resist with no violence. Others make secret deals with the axis.

As the war winds down, India finally achieves independence, unified under one, Indian, ruler, for the first time since the Mauryans. Control India or Pakistan as they navigate this new world with hostile neighbors, and clash over key territories. Be the first to obtain nukes, before your enemy does.

----------

This game would not be so deterministic as it sounds, however. It would be entirely possible to drive off the British East India Company and prevent the Raj from ever arising...but you will be without the British crown's protection when the mighty Japanese army arrives.

 

[hotrodlincoln]

Possible Cultures (Most of these will likely not make the cut):

Requires Culture (North India)
----------
Assamese
Bengali
Bihari
Bhumihar
Chitrali
Dhivehi
Gujarati
Kashmiri
Saurashtra
Shina
Hindki
Konkani
Marathi
Muhaji
Oriya
Pahari (Dogra, Garhwali, Gurkha, Nepali, Khas, Kumaini
Punjabi (Khatri, Arora, Gujjar, Kamboj)
Rajasthanis (Marwari, Jat, Rajput, Meena, Ahir)
Seraiki
Sinhalese
Sindhi
Tharu
----
Requires Culture (Islamic/Iranian/Turko-Mongol)
-----
Pashtun
Baloch
Mughal
---
Requires Culture (South Indian)
----
Bhil
Bonda
Brahui
Beary
Kurukh
Khond
Gondi
Kannadiga
Kodava
Malayali
Malto
Tamil
Telugu
Toda
Tuluvas
Irulas
---
Requires Culture (East Indian/Burmese)
----
Bhutia
Monpa
Chakma
Chepang
Gurung
Karbi
Kirat
Lepcha
Magar
Manipuri
Naga
Newar
Tamang
Thakali
Thami
Tripuri
Memba
Khowa
Nishi

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

To support your invasions you will probably want the "Spawn a Civ" mod. It places a set of units where you want when you want them. StrategyOnly has been on at me to convert that mod for years.

You will probably need a special set of animal spawns as well.

 

[hotrodlincoln]

Whoops. I'd been operating under the assumption we could already do that.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Whoops. I'd been operating under the assumption we could already do that.

Only barbarians at this time.

 

[johny smith]

What religions would you use? Anything pre-Hindu, pre-Jain, or pre-Buddhism?

 

[hotrodlincoln]

Unfortunately, we simply now very little about pre-vedic religion, and I wouldn't feel comfortable simply making thing up. I would include some nods to it from what little we know, but no religion would exist, mechanically, until Hinduism. I do plan to introduce changes to how the religion works, however. All the religions, but especially Hinduism would evolve over time. There would be no holy city mechanic in play, as this would unfairly penalize important foreign religions like islam and christianity.

The in game religions would be hinduism, jainism, buddhism, zoroastrianism, judaism, islam, sikhism, christianity, and baha'i.

 

[johny smith]

It would be easier to leave the same set that comes with C2C, and if you have something for the evolving on Hinduism that would be neat.

I am not expert on the region, but I see the different sects for example being something to work with. Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaktism and Smartism. I would have Hindu as Smartism more or less, and have the other start because they were before the term Hindu. Like I said if I understand correctly. I made entire sets for them is why I ask. The entire array of buildings and units.

The split is Islam I thought matter as well, but much smaller. I have some different sets for that as well. The split of Buddhism as well if Tibet and China are in. Oh and have the two Zoroastrian denominations that occurred if Persia is in it with Zurvanism. Anyway point I am saying I have stuff in you need it for religion sets.

Now earlier ideas I did something for some of the Vedic gods but just units. Not much really just Indra, Agni, and Mithra. (Well a soundset for Vedic anyway).
https://worldofciv.svn.sourceforge....Assets/Modules/Rapture/Sounds/Vedic/Vedic.mp3

I thought Agni had horse sacrifices for example, and perhaps human sacrifice earlier. Well there is some info on them but not exactly everything.

I understand why you would not want to complicate things, but it would be chance to show a lot more detail. Well it sounds like a neat mod regardless.

Edit: I still wonder if my zoro founded animated movie is in C2C. If not it looks better than just a symbol. I see my soundset is.

 

[hotrodlincoln]

Complication is a good thing. If you already have things built and ready to go for the differing sects of Hinduism, they could most certainly be incorporated. Persia, Tibet, and China would not be featured on this map. I originally wanted to include Southeast Asia all the way down to Indonesia, but I would not have been able to include as much detail if I had done so, so I decided to focus on just India. Zoroastrianism, I don't feel would need to have differing sects. It's a very small religion in India.

Hinduism - Vaishnavism, Saivism, Shaktism, Smartism, Shrautism (Shrautism is a revival movement in Hinduism which follows the Vedic gods [For the most part, though many communities incorporate worship of later Gods] and practices the Vedic sacrifices. This movement could be tied into the Vedic form of Hinduism and allow a small revival later on.)

Islam - Sunni, Shia, Sufism (Not a sect in and of itself, but a prominent movement in Indian Islam. The parellels between Indian philosophy and the mystic philosophy of the Sufis began the first wave of Islamic conversion in India. The first conversions were at the hands of peaceful muslims, not conquerers), Ahmaddiya (Many muslims do not consider the Ahmaddiya to be properly Muslim. They originated in Pakistan and exist in considerable numbers in India)

Christianity - The first Christians in India belonged to the Eastern traditions, and used the Syraic liturgy. The origins are unclear, but Christianity was established and spread across India by the 6th century CE. Tradition holds that St. Thomas the Apostle first spread Christianity to India. Most Christians in India today are Roman Catholic, which was first introduced by the Portuguese. The second largest group of Christians in India are the various protestant denominations, the largest of which is the Church Of South India, an offshoot of the Church of England, introduced, of course, by the Chinese

Buddhism - Buddhist 'sects' are comparable more to differing schools of thoughts than sects. Mahayana Buddhism is the predominant form of Buddhism practiced in India, though Buddhism is not as large or influential a religion in India as it once was. In Sri Lanka, fully 70% of the population follow Therevedan Buddhism.

The map, for reference, will likely include the modern day areas of Pakistan, India, Nepal, Bhutan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and most likely Burma, at least partially.

 

[johny smith]

The Hindu sects have everything except for a unique sound for each.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=325610

None of the later era ones have unique soundsets. They all use the similar religion that they are grouped on for sounds.

The Islam branches are not focused only on India.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=325609

Kharijites, Ismailism, Mu'tazili could be substituted for Sufism and Ahmaddiya.

The Buddhist ones are covered, but you could have the Dali lama moving in post China taking Tibet as an event if you want to add Vajrayana.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=325611

Christian is here.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=325608
Nestorianism was the non-Roman one I used to be in areas of Persian influence so I was thinking more Syraic, but could be renamed. They all could be changed however to match different Christian denominations or sects.

I hope it is of use, and it sounds cool. Are there branches of Jainism? The movies are in there as well. One wonder for each as a shrine. Oh and do you think Manichaeism had any impact?

Here is how I grouped the ones out of Persia.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=325616

 

[hotrodlincoln]

Digembara and Svetambara are the two main branches of Jainism. Like Buddhism, these are not two sects with a violent, turbulent history like catholicism/protestantism or sunni/shia.

The key differences between Digembara and Svetambara are in practice, not philosophy. The Digembara ascetics are famous for their practice of forsaking clothing. They "wear the environment" and walk the land entirely in the nude, with only a broom and a water gourd as their possessions. Svetambara ascetics wear white robes, and cover their mouth and nose with a breathing mask. Digembara Jains do not believe that Women may attain Moksha in this life, where the Svetambara Jains are adamant that they can. The Svetambara Jains are also opposed to Idol worship.

These differences are fairly minor in the grand scheme, so Jainism should likely be presented as one religion.

Edit: As for Manichaeism, I can find references that it had spread to India, but nothing else which explores the subject with any depth. In all likelyhood, Manichaeism quietly faded away in the subcontinent.

 

[hotrodlincoln]

Ravidassia could be included as well. They are followers of the teachings of the 14th century Guru Ravidass. Originally the Ravidassi where hard to distinguish from the Sikhs, as they used the Guru Granth Sahib as their holiest text, which included much of Ravidass' poetry and teachings. They later broke away from Sikhism after a number of their followers were forbidden from a Gurudwara in the Punjab.

Given the extreme similiarity in practices and belief, as well as the common origins, they could easily be considered a "sect" of Sikhism.

The Namdhari are another sect of Sikhism, who believe in Jagijt Singh as the living Guru as opposed to the Guru Granth Sahib. They are strict vegetarians and vigorous protectors of animals. Beyond this, they follow the same teachings as mainstream Sikhism.

The Udasi Sikhs emphasize ascetism and a monastic tradition. Unlike mainstream Sikhs, they shave their heads.

 

[johny smith]

Sikh differences sound interesting, but I never made anything for the religion. I could perhaps if needed.

Forgot to mention no founding movies for the religions, but I assume the generic one in C2C could be used with a new icon for each.

 

[hotrodlincoln]

I wouldn't worry too much about it right this second. I'm just throwing ideas out here. Really, this whole modmod is pretty dependent on the Spawn A Civ mod that we don't have. What, exactly, would have to be changed from the RFC code to make it work for C2C?

 

[ls612]

I wouldn't worry too much about it right this second. I'm just throwing ideas out here. Really, this whole modmod is pretty dependent on the Spawn A Civ mod that we don't have. What, exactly, would have to be changed from the RFC code to make it work for C2C?

I'm pretty sure we have Spawn a Civ (it was part of RoM I think).

 

[strategyonly]

I'm pretty sure we have Spawn a Civ (it was part of RoM I think).

Nope, we have parts, but some of the tags are missing. As far as i know? At least i cant get it to work.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The "Spawn a Civ" mod is not yet in C2C. StrategyOnly asks me to every year. Up until last year I felt that it added nothing that "Barbarian Civ" did not give. However it then dawned on me that t would be ideal for Scenarios but useless in random maps. Getting it to work will not be hard but I don't know if there will be balance issues etc once it is working.