C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

EldrinFal

King
Joined
Mar 22, 2011
Messages
926
I've started this thread to open up discussion on Civics in C2C. What do you think of current Civics? What should be changed/added?

Generally speaking, I'd say that all Civics should have pros and cons with late-game Civics having less cons to reflect a more enlightened and technologically advanced civilization.

The current Governments are very general and I think can be made more specific (at least conceptually). For example, Democracy is more of a category of Government, with specific forms being Direct Democracy, Representative Democracy, Democratic Socialism, etc.

How about the DEFCON Civic? Is it overpowered? Do you use it? Does the AI use it effectively?

Let us know your thoughts. :scan:
 

Koshling

Vorlon
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Messages
9,254
I've started this thread to open up discussion on Civics in C2C. What do you think of current Civics? What should be changed/added?

Generally speaking, I'd say that all Civics should have pros and cons with late-game Civics having less cons to reflect a more enlightened and technologically advanced civilization.

The current Governments are very general and I think can be made more specific (at least conceptually). For example, Democracy is more of a category of Government, with specific forms being Direct Democracy, Representative Democracy, Democratic Socialism, etc.

How about the DEFCON Civic? Is it overpowered? Do you use it? Does the AI use it effectively?

Let us know your thoughts. :scan:

I don't like GST. It's too close to what the tax rate does and IMO is just a way for people to keep reseach at 100% when they SHOULD have to make choices about research vs income via the normal tax slider.
 

EldrinFal

King
Joined
Mar 22, 2011
Messages
926
I don't like GST. It's too close to what the tax rate does and IMO is just a way for people to keep reseach at 100% when they SHOULD have to make choices about research vs income via the normal tax slider.

Is GST from AND? (I don't recall it being there, but it's been awhile since I played that one) Or was it more recently added? If so, I'd be curious to hear the reason why it was included. As you said Koshling, it does just seem like just more tax.
 

strategyonly

C2C Supreme Commander
Joined
Mar 13, 2006
Messages
20,869
Location
MN
that is one of VineFynn civics he worked on, nobody has said anything before now? If it doesnt work, maybe re-tuning or just take it out?

Remember now guys that WE are working with a whole new ballgame from the SVN copy from what the other players are using.
 
Joined
Jul 5, 2004
Messages
23,556
Location
Canberra, Australia
Is GST from AND? (I don't recall it being there, but it's been awhile since I played that one) Or was it more recently added? If so, I'd be curious to hear the reason why it was included. As you said Koshling, it does just seem like just more tax.

It has been there since v14 iirc.
 

climat

King
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
735
The current Governments are very general and I think can be made more specific (at least conceptually). For example, Democracy is more of a category of Government, with specific forms being Direct Democracy, Representative Democracy, Democratic Socialism, etc.

IMHO, government civics are fine as they are. No need to complicate it.
 
Joined
Jul 5, 2004
Messages
23,556
Location
Canberra, Australia
Personally I don't like the DEFCON or GST either. I just don't think they fit well as a Civic. However I have not said anything until now since I was afraid if i spoke up you guys would want to take out my civics like the Garbage or Language civics.

Or the borders one - I have yet to use it!
 

Hydromancerx

C2C Modder
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
16,281
Location
California, USA
On a side topic I would like to add some civics from Afforess' Civic Ideas.

Specifically ...
- Agriculture
- Energy
- Housing

And maybe some of the others. We already have some like Garbage, Education and Immigration.

Or the borders one - I have yet to use it!

The Border ones are nice especially when you can get up to "Skilled Workers Only" civic. I think Afforess did a good job with them.
 

exacta

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 18, 2011
Messages
22
Or the borders one - I have yet to use it!

The only ones worth using are Open Borders if you can pay for it, or Skilled Workers only.

On a side topic I would like to add some civics from Afforess' Civic Ideas.

Specifically ...
- Agriculture
- Energy
- Housing

And maybe some of the others. We already have some like Garbage, Education and Immigration.



The Border ones are nice especially when you can get up to "Skilled Workers Only" civic. I think Afforess did a good job with them.

Agriculture I suppose could be interesting but Housing and Energy seem like they need to be fleshed out a bit more.
 

climat

King
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
735
Do you use open border civic? Personally, I always go for closed border because I play with revolution. It is the only civic which increases national stability in early era.
 

Koshling

Vorlon
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Messages
9,254
Do you use open border civic? Personally, I always go for closed border because I play with revolution. It is the only civic which increases national stability in early era.

I play with revolution on too, but I generally use open borders - it's perfectly usable (dpending what else you have). I like this civic in general (it belongs as a civic IMO). I also like the language one. Not wild about DEFCON.
 

EldrinFal

King
Joined
Mar 22, 2011
Messages
926
I do agree, cant make it too complicated, there are ALOT of noobs:joke: out there, remember.

Actually, I'm hoping to simplify them as a whole. Changing the gov't names won't over-complicate things imho

There are a lot of Civics. And if there are some people never use, then they should either be removed or improved. I'm glad this thread has started some discussion about it since that will help let us know what people are using. And thoughts in general. :D
 

climat

King
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
735
I said "complicate" because of your examples.
I think it is not that necessary to divide democracy into direct and representative one and Democratic Socialism is a combination of democracy and other civic option (society, welfare, economy, power, anything) rather than a separate political system. I consider government civics fundamental types of political systems. So, Current government civics cover enough imo.

I usually don't use Coinage (it's not that useful than compared to Slavery), Patrician, Waste to Sea (it's weird, though. How can I dump trash to sea if I have no coastal city or tile?), Proletariat, Military Tradition, Vassalage, Conscription, and so on..

I can't help using Republic and Democracy "thanks to" civic city limits although its +25%/+50% war weariness really annoys me. :rolleyes: And Federal.. even more war weariness (+75%). I can't conduct war!
 

EldrinFal

King
Joined
Mar 22, 2011
Messages
926
I said "complicate" because of your examples.
I think it is not that necessary to divide democracy into direct and representative one and Democratic Socialism is a combination of democracy and other civic option (society, welfare, economy, power, anything) rather than a separate political system. I consider government civics fundamental types of political systems. So, Current government civics cover enough imo.

That could be the case, but it isn't clear enough with the way it's laid out now. It just didn't seem that way to me. Also, I don't necessarily think we need to split each of them into a bunch of sub-branches. Democracy doesn't need to become 3 new forms. It might just be renamed to one of them.

Or... another Civic is renamed and updated to fit into the second wording: Federal, Constitutional, etc. I haven't thought it all out yet as I wanted to hear other opinions. And I think Hydro is in charge of it anyway? Maybe :)


I usually don't use Coinage (it's not that useful than compared to Slavery), Patrician, Waste to Sea (it's weird, though. How can I dump trash to sea if I have no coastal city or tile?), Proletariat, Military Tradition, Vassalage, Conscription, and so on..

I can't help using Republic and Democracy "thanks to" civic city limits although its +25%/+50% war weariness really annoys me. :rolleyes: And Federal.. even more war weariness (+75%). I can't conduct war!

I used to avoid Slavery like the plague because in other versions of the game it would cause a lot of unrest or slavery events. It may also cause instability using the REV mod.

I haven't been using REV lately because although I liked it, I felt it tilted things too much in my favor in AND, as the AI would almost all universally have problems with them, whereas I would not. Additionally, I would end up with 30+ Civs in the game as they kept spawning from revolutions, and I thought that slowed the game down (literal real time).
 

EldrinFal

King
Joined
Mar 22, 2011
Messages
926
On a side topic I would like to add some civics from Afforess' Civic Ideas.

Specifically ...
- Agriculture
- Energy
- Housing

And maybe some of the others. We already have some like Garbage, Education and Immigration.

The Border ones are nice especially when you can get up to "Skilled Workers Only" civic. I think Afforess did a good job with them.

I'm not sure I agree with all the effects of the border stuff though. It's a heated issue here in Cal. and the other SW US States, so I'm not certain that Open or Closed offer a Happiness bonus. It IS an interesting concept to have on the Civics though, so I'm not saying remove it. Just the effects should be re-evaluated.

Garbage: I think "Importation" needs to be removed. The category, to me, covers how your Civ deals with your own trash. Well, you can't solve your own trash problem by importing more! :) I would consider that like a Building that gives a lot of unhealth and maybe unhappiness in exchange for money.
 

Koshling

Vorlon
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Messages
9,254
That could be the case, but it isn't clear enough with the way it's laid out now. It just didn't seem that way to me. Also, I don't necessarily think we need to split each of them into a bunch of sub-branches. Democracy doesn't need to become 3 new forms. It might just be renamed to one of them.

Or... another Civic is renamed and updated to fit into the second wording: Federal, Constitutional, etc. I haven't thought it all out yet as I wanted to hear other opinions. And I think Hydro is in charge of it anyway? Maybe :)




I used to avoid Slavery like the plague because in other versions of the game it would cause a lot of unrest or slavery events. It may also cause instability using the REV mod.

I haven't been using REV lately because although I liked it, I felt it tilted things too much in my favor in AND, as the AI would almost all universally have problems with them, whereas I would not. Additionally, I would end up with 30+ Civs in the game as they kept spawning from revolutions, and I thought that slowed the game down (literal real time).

Apart from causing a crash I (which I fixed) I discovered in debugging someone's save game (for said crash) that civ splits are FANTASTICALLY expensive to process. Having the extra civs costs something, but it's not too bad really (total game wide city count is much more the driver), but processing a split cost about 5 times more than an entire turn end! Mostly this is down to transfer of city ownership (which is very inefficient and expensive), which happens for large numbers of cities at once in an empire split.
 

JosEPh_II

TBS WarLord
Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
16,524
Location
Western IL. cornfields
Republic, Democracy, and Federal are nerfed by the War Weariness factor. If you have to travel over the sea to wage a war with these 3 Gov't Civic choices it better be a Quick war! Else things get out of hand at home real quick. But I have to use them because of getting past the City Limits stranglehold for expansion since I play Big Maps with few AI (10 or less).

So far I've never made it to the Defcon usable era so I can't comment (well I can and did) ;P

I always go for Open Borders and Landfills. Of course I never use REV.

I use Coinage (cause I never use Slavery) and then Guilds. But if my Money/Gold holds up I wait to get past Guilds. Unless I really need Guild Halls (and what happened to Manors?).

I use Proletariat and then I would use Bureaucracy, but Bureaucracy isn't what it used to be. Something was removed from it and I can't recall what it was, but it diminished its usage for me.

Bourgeois has too many redface penalties and not enough boost to research or culture.

Survival is the only Civic that gives usage to mercenary camps. And these camps should be under a different Civic group like Military and have a longer timeframe for usage. Otherwise they are short lived and wasted.

That's some of my opinions about Civics off the top of my thinning gray head! :p More to follow.

JosEPh :)
 

strategyonly

C2C Supreme Commander
Joined
Mar 13, 2006
Messages
20,869
Location
MN
Survival is the only Civic that gives usage to mercenary camps. And these camps should be under a different Civic group like Military and have a longer timeframe for usage. Otherwise they are short lived and wasted.

JosEPh :)

I have been saying that now for 6 months:p
 
Top Bottom