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C2C - Maintenance Adjustments

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Hydromancerx, Apr 25, 2011.

  1. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    This thread is involves an issue Thunderbrd pointed out in C2C. This thread is ment to work out the details so we can better balance maintenance. This mainly focuses on buildings but also possibly issues with guilds and corporations. Here are some past posts about the issue ...

     
  2. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    So what I need help with is actual stats for buildings so I know what to change them to.
     
  3. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    hmm... Ok, then, proposals for some of them:

    Public Utilities (-%)
    - Biofuel Power Plant (-5% (note: I'm suggesting these without a thorough review of power plants and their various differences. These could be slightly adjusted to balance them out and make for some cause to build one over another. For example, you could make one type of plant cost a percentage or two higher but be more productive, or less poluting, while another costs less upkeep but doesn't have quite the impact or polutes more, etc... At the moment, without looking at them all on a spreadsheet, I'd suggest -5% as a baseline to consider for all of them.)
    - Biomass Power Plant (-5%)
    - Bus Station (-2%)
    - Cistern (-1%)
    - Desalination Plant (-5%)
    - Fire Brigade (-4% (I'm not sure how to define the differences in many of these fire buildings. Perhaps some could be at less than 4% as they don't require as much staffing.)
    - Fire Dock (-4%)
    - Fire Hangar (-4%)
    - Fire Hydrants (-1%)
    - Fire Station (-4% (what I'm basing these considerations on...)
    - Garbage Collection Agency (-4%)
    - Geothermal Power Plant (-5%)
    - Graveyard (-1%)
    - High Tech Coal Power Plant (-5%)
    - Methane Power Plant (-5%)
    - Microwave Power Plant (-5%)
    - Natural Gas Powerplant (-5%)
    - Paved Roads (-4%)
    - Personal Rapid Train (-4%)
    - Power Lines (-3%)
    - Public Transportation (-4%)
    - Recycling Center (-3%)
    - Reservoir (-2%)
    - Sewer System (-3%)
    - Solar Mirror Array (-5%)
    - Solar Photovoltaic Power Plant (-5%)
    - Solar Photovoltaic Roofs (-5%)
    - Solar Power Satellite (-5%)
    - Super Coal Power Plant (-5%)
    - Telephone Network (-3%)
    - Tidal Farm (-5%)
    - Town Well (-1%)
    - Waste Incinerator Power Plant (-5%)
    - Water Pipes (-2%)
    - Water Pumping Station (-2%)
    - Water Tower (-2%)
    - Water Treatment Plant (-3%)
    - Wave Farm (-5%)
    - Wind Farm (-5%)
    - Wind Water Pump (-2%(I may be seriously misjudging what this building is for though)
    - Retirement Home (-3%)
    - Farm Supply (-3%)
    - Greenhouse (-2%)
    - Townclock (-1%)
    - Weather Station (-2%)
    Any public school building (-4%) should probably be included in this category, in short, anything that requires some staffing or consistent work to upkeep that builds in demand as the city grows...


    Leisure (+ Maintenance % penalty)
    - Aquarium (2%)
    - Arena (10%)
    - Ballroom (2%)
    - Battlebot Arena (4%)
    - Cruise Ship Port (4%)
    - Drama School (2%)
    - Fairgrounds (6%)
    - Ice Rink (2%)
    - Major League Stadium (8%)
    - Minor League Stadium (4%)
    - Music School (2%)
    - Petting Zoo (1%)
    - Public Pool (3%)
    - Recreation Center (4%)
    - Ski Resort (3%)
    - Speedway (5%)
    - Vacation Resort (10%)
    - Water Raceway (4%)
    - Zero G Sports Arena (10%)
    - Zoo (2%)
    - Theater (5%)
    - Casino (25%)
    - Saloon (25%)
    - Brothel (25%)
    I propose a Tavern (20%)
    and an Inn (20%)
    and a Motel (20%)
    and a Hotel (10%)
    and an RV Park (10%)
    these are so high because they harbor the criminal element as well.
    additionally:
    Bandit buildings and anything crime centric (10-25%)

    Probably more could apply here... I suggest adding anything that could feasibly increase the crime rate/societal slack to this list, such as even Bandit Camps and such.

    Defense (-)
    - Airfield -5
    - Booby Traps -2
    - Castle -4
    - Citadel -4
    - City Gatehouse -2
    - Fencing Academy -2
    - Fighting Pit -2
    - Gladiatorial School -2
    - Jousting Tournament -3
    - Landmines -2
    - Mechanical Traps -2
    - Pit Traps -1
    - Robotic Traps -3
    - Security Center -4
    - Town Watch -1
    I'd include barracks (-3 to -5) and their ilk in this category... would make you think twice about including them in EVERY city! And the current method of AI determinations would harmonize for them nicely I think.

    Bureaucracy (-1/2 -1/2 Maintenance %)(I would have beuraucratic buildings cost a % gold but reduce maintenance... see how that works! This would reflect the expanding need for staffing and upkeep but the effective reduction of crime/slack in society as they bring more order to the civilization.)
    - City Council -3% gold, -6% Maintenance
    - Guild Hall -2% gold, -10% Maintenance
    - Metropolitan Administration - 5% gold, -10% Maintenance
    - Social Services -5% gold, -20% Maintenance
    - Town Hall -2% gold, -4% Maintenance
    - Village Hall -1% gold, -2% Maintenance
    - Welfare Office -3% gold, -12% Maintenance
    - Ranger Station -2% gold, -8% Maintenance
    - State Park -3% gold, +4% Maintenance (yes + as its also a liesure)
    - Police Station -5% gold, -20% Maintenance
    - Insane Assylum -3% gold, -15% Maintenance
    - Manor -2% gold, -5% Maintenance
    - Servant's Quarter (I'd probably consider this more like a military building as its to staff government paid help that wouldn't grow far beyond the basic demand of the leader.) thus -2 gold.
    - Throne Room -1% gold, -5% Maintenance
    -Jail -3% gold, -15% Maintenance
    -Maximum Security Prison -5% gold, -25% Maintenance (-10% Maintenance in every other city)
    -Courthouse -3% gold, -15% Maintenance
    -Chief's Hut -1% gold, -4% Maintenance
    Possibly some of the espionage agency style buildings should be included here as well. Though their impact would be something akin to -5% gold, -5% Maintenance (not so much as it tends to allow crime and liesure to operate under surveillance more often than not, so as to garner more info.)
    etc...

    Anyhow... that's the suggestions based on theory anyways. Operating under the basic premises of what these numbers represent, perhaps many more buidings should be placed under consideration as lying in one of these categories.
     
  4. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Oh i forgot to post my changes since this was first brought up.

    Booby Traps, Landmines, Mechanical Traps, Pit Traps and Robotic Traps were set to 0 Maintenance so they would be more attractive to build.

    Also the Chief's Hut was set to +1% Maintenance and -5% :gold:.

    I think they were balanced unless you object to those adjustments.

    Otherwise what you have so far looks good. Could you help out with the core buildings (ones not in my mods)?
     
  5. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    The only one there that seems out of whack would be the chief's hut. It should reduce maintenance as its a governmental seat, but then cost some gold percentage as it takes some money to maintain its operations.

    I'll take a look through the rest of the buildings later today perhaps.
     
  6. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I'll have to get to that tomorrow - been recruited for some other tasks tonight.
     
  7. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    RL? or C2C stuff? I am just noisy:think:
     
  8. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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  9. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    @Thunderbrd

    Do you have any time to re-visit this? It seem like its needed more than ever to counter act my new "Goods". As you said early game you end up with much too much gold, but then once guilds and corporations roll around the maintenance cost builds up to much with the other maintenance buildings in place.

    If you can get the buildings you listed changed in a timely manner I would be happy to update my sub-mods too with your changes. At the moment all i would be focusing on is the Embassy folder which doesn't include this stuff. So it would be a good opportunity to edit my stuff without us conflicting with each other.

    The details on what you change i will leave up to you. I can look them over after your done. I suspect any change will be a good step in the right direction. If its too much or too little we can adjust as we test it in future versions. Balance is just a matter of tweaking and testing I suspect.
     
  10. Nightguard

    Nightguard Chieftain

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    Very interesting to see what you're doing here. I like that different types of buildings have different maintenance 'methods' in this system. Not only does it add a bit of variety, it's also pretty logical.

    Are you mainly just looking at rebalancing the current maintenance adding buildings, or are you considering adding to the list? I have been thinking that most of the healthcare buildings should have some kind of maintenance cost added to them, particularly as you move towards the modern era healthcare buildings. While it's true that healthcare in the US is a multi-billion dollar industry, a lot of that money moves through non-profit entities that do not pay taxes to the government. In Canada and many European nations, the government pays for healthcare directly through their own budget, although I suppose that could be reflected better through civics than direct maintenance costs.

    I suppose my thought process is partly real-life reflection, and partly game balance. These buildings can potentially add numerous Health to a city, and a monetary cost to balance that out would not seem unreasonable to me.
     
  11. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Yeah, I'm presently working on getting a full on evaluation done for ALL buildings, categorizing them into various sets and applying some basic conceptual adjustments based on those categories and comparisons to other buildings within said categories. If that makes any sense ;)
     
  12. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    @Thunderbrd

    If its ok with you I need to tweak and change some stuff in my files. So If you need to change anything in the Hydro folder let me know exactly what needs changing and I will go in and manually change it myself.
     
  13. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    More importantly, update me on all changes so I can update my growing spreadsheet that covers all buildings. This is my first step in looking to do balance work across the whole system of buildings.
     
  14. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Well when did you last look at the buildings? Before or after the Unique buildings got merged?

    As for the most recent stuff from me I just added some new "goods", which don't apply. However i did majorly change the market, bazaar, grocer, crafts hut and trading post. I also put back in features like in the power plants giving them the ability to produce power again.

    So nothing is changed in code right? Just spreadsheet stuff? If so all my changes did not change maintenance (except I think the Mausoleum).

    Could you post the spreadsheet so I can see where your at?
     
  15. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I'm somewhere in the C's still

    All of the spreadsheet so far is based on the most recent release build. So there's probably a lot you've done. All I really need to do once I get it to that point is share it with you and get it updated, then I can work on assigning adjustments by looking at a bigger picture schema.
     
  16. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Is this for EVERY building or just for the ones you made a list of before?
     
  17. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Its for EVERY building so that all are taken into consideration! yeah... quite a task but doing this will help us to have the spreadsheet for future ease of many references and will make this particular process a lot cleaner.
     
  18. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Well hat's off to ya for attempting such an epic task. :hatsoff:

    I am sure everyone will benefit from your work.
     
  19. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

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    Even all the stuff in my mods? Wow!
     
  20. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    yep... ALL buildings.

    Let me tell you, just reaching the end of the Cs has been quite a task already. But I've begun and I'm bullish about trying to complete data entry tasks once I've started them. Wasn't able to get to as much today as hoped but progress is what it is.
     

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