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C2C - Religions discussions and ideas

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Dancing Hoskuld, Oct 13, 2011.

  1. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    I think that Sevo's mod allows for schisms without the need for adding more religions. In fact it allows for a Hindi and Christian sect,for example, to be closer to each other than their parent religion. :)
     
  2. Lawrie

    Lawrie Prince

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    I mean I think that's cool anyway, as regards to Atheism as a combined 'religion' for the modern era like how how the others combine themselves (denomination ally) into religions.

    I think schism would be cool but it's a daunting piece of work probably eh? Is it? Schism works of course where it reflects the splits between the biggest world religions (in parallel) to our history. It might be worth bearing in mind that C2C currently allows all sorts of religions to become the majority belief etc? hmm
     
  3. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    Imho one Atheist religion would be beneficial for the mod. It would provide for a more proactive in-game atheism than can be achieved with civics alone.

    However I would understand if the idea was heresy:mischief:...err I mean anathema/offensive to some atheists, and in such case it's not going to happen.
     
  4. Lawrie

    Lawrie Prince

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    Agreed, and I hope it's not dismissed for ideological reasons because... if that's what its come to nowadays then Western civilisation is f**-ked.
     
  5. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    +2 (1 to each ;) )
     
  6. RogueJade

    RogueJade Chieftain

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    why not just make a belief system instead of a religion system, it would save people the trouble of having to choose between one or the other and be able to mix and match a "religion".

    one could base it on the already existing trait system for leaders and instead make it so that it would have the same effects on civilizations as a religion would in the current system.

    just a thought really im still fairly new to this mod so i dont really know whats doable or not, plus i dont know a lick about modding so i wouldn't know where to begin on this if asked to elaborate.
     
  7. n47

    n47 Prince

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    Atheism actually do not determine humans behavior too well. Atheists can have diametrically different beliefs. Ones are great altruists and others great egoists. Ones value science, others their experiences and personal reflections. Ones are anti-war, others would gladly welcome III WW.

    Scientism is a philosophical view and it determines some attitude. Maybe it would do a better job as a religion?
     
  8. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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  9. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    The most obvious thing wrong with that is that Rome only adopted Christianity in the 4th century. The other is that the Jews were an insignificant fraction of the empire's population - slave or otherwise - and their insurrection was one of many revolts and incursions that the Romans dealt with.

    Josephus (if he even existed lol) is clearly an unreliable source. At best, his history correlates with the 'gospels' because they were his source - not the other way round.

    Jesus may well have been fictional, but no evidence either way is presented here. This so-called 'proven' theory is transparently fabricated purely to sell books.
     
  10. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Even if Flavius Josephus didn't exist, someone had to write his books. Given that he was writing during the middle of the First Century, it's likely that he was a contemporary of the Gospel writers. I don't believe this article either and I concur with your idea that it's purely publicity, but you can't disprove it quite that easily.
     
  11. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    No serious biblical scholar or historian of religion would give this the slightest credence. It simply doesn't pass the threshold of attention-worthiness. And when even Richard Dawkins refrains from outright endorsement, you know you've scraped the bottom of the barrel.
     
  12. n47

    n47 Prince

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    I've never heard about any serious reasoning about not existence of Josephus Flavius. Must say, I have thought, it is generally acknowledged historic fact. Can you bring any references, which would point, he could not exist?
     
  13. DRJ

    DRJ Hedonist

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    I don't think so. The author, Atwill, comes from a background of bible study in original languages. He was a christian, at first. Then he found many similarities between the story of "Jesus", son of god and the story of Titus, son of Verspasian. As we all know, the roman emperor wanted to be treated as a god... When he sent his son to Judea, to quell rebellion, for instance he sunk the fleet of jewish fishermen, "fishing them out of the water" afterwards, "Jesus" story begins there, were he turned his apostels to "fishers of men".

    The main goal, to implant a pacifistic wing into the jewish populace to undermine the zealots messianic movement, was something the roman psy-ops at that time were surely capable of. They were very well educated in such strategies, as conspiracies were their daily work, so to speak. The hints they gave to the aristocracy to understand the gospels as a "mocking story", describing the Flavians Dynasty as original creators of the gospels myths -- if you connect the dots; which, again the historically educated classes could easily understand.
    Romans had very huge capabilities of remembering stories, even whole books. They also spoke more in rhymes and used "pictures" of words, as seen if putting gospels and Flavius Josephus writings side by side.

    Last but not least the sources lay bare and what evidence do you need? We only have very very very little sources and Flavius Josphus is one of them. How do you explain the similarities? So you think the way Jospehus decribes how and where Titus campaign has been carried out (the battle at the lake genezareth the burning of the temple etc pp) is based on the gospels??! No way.

    There are a lot more similarities, of course, not only the quote of the fishers of men. I read Atwills book 6 years ago and even wrote something in different forums about it, discussing the theory. I am very glad the documentary is out Nov. 19th and hope the world will recognize what mindfu.ck and psyops most organized religions are based upon.

    EDIT: I just found out its already downloadable as a torrent - check it out!
    EDIT 2: Apparently this 2012 version is not the same production that is out Nov 19th. The link yields a video where 7 scientists discuss the theory whereas the upcoming film is a costly documentary underlayed with pictures and stuff.

    Of course it will be not so easy to expain it to half-analphabets in third world countries where the church is still strong but the enlightenment has to be done, so not more and more generations are infiltrated with lies and such. Most importantly, the moral of the story is: if they did some mass-manipulations back then, they surely do something like this today. Being aware of the past will change the way we look at the present and thus lead to a different future!!!

    Here is a short version of the documentary. For all those who haven't heard about the theory its a good point to start at. Although for scientific oriented people its effects are a bit too much --- a broader audience, having grown up with "documentaries" will keep watching, maybe. And thats good, because it really teaches a thing or two how the world has been and still is ruled behind the curtains.



    Link to video.
     
  14. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    If he has genuine qualifications then he has sold them out with this transparent and credibility-free moneygrab.

    Is there a point here? The Jewish revolt was over forever in AD70 - before Josephus' works and during the writing of the Gospels. Other revolts happened of course, and to them events in Judaea were entirely irrelevant. Why would Roman psy-ops be focussed on an edge-of-the-empire revolt that was already over?

    Of course Josephus could write propaganda for his owner Vespasian. What else is Vespasian likely to let him write? It doesn't give it any credibility though.

    Whereas this disorganized evidenceless religion of yours is not? Institutional religion does a certain amount of harm, but a transparent tissue of sensationalist nonsense is not the way to combat that - indeed, it is counterproductive for so doing.

    All it does is tell some people what they want to hear, so that your book sells.

    And replaced with worse lies? It's not going to happen.
     
  15. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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  16. n47

    n47 Prince

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    I also don't think it's a correct place.
     
  17. teakbois

    teakbois Prince

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    Thoughts on religion implementation:

    I like having multiple religions. I do not want to be limited to just one choice all game.

    But we can all agree the current system is a bit of a mess.

    I dont know if this is feasible, but I think this would work:

    The base of the idea is that religion influence is tracked separately for each religion.

    For instance, you have followed Tengriism for centuries. But maybe you want King Richard's Crusade and you found Christianity. Well at first, your citizens don't know of it. So you build a few missionaries to boost it. You erect shrines and temples. Maybe you can even destroy Shamanism buildings (for an unhappiness/revolution hit though). But if you keep sending out the missionaries eventually people will come around.

    So you can change mid game, but you can't flip every few turns. It will require effort to do this, and you can have religious wars with your neighbors trying t weed out their religion.

    There are two ways to do this, either track religion city by city (in which case many of the civics would still function as is). You select the official state religion regardless of its status among your citizens, and if that is the dominant religion in that city then it gets the bonuses for state religion.

    The other way is having the overall population's dominant religion be your 'state religion'.

    This can be done by points. For example, each temple puts out 5 influence points per turn. A missionary adds 100 influence points. A great prophet adds 1,000. Naming a religion as a sate religion doubles influence. the older religions have buildings which produce fewer influence, that way old religions that are no longer relevant will eventually fade away unless someone puts forth a monumental effort to keep them around.

    Also, this allows atheism and agnosticism into the game and they spread the exact same way.
     
  18. teakbois

    teakbois Prince

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    Also a quick thought on atheism and agnosticism.

    Obviously its a difficult subject to approach, because both are pretty broad words.

    Agnosticism doesn't rule out belief in a higher power. Agnostics generally claim to not know the answer. So if you don't know the answer, what might you be tempted to do? Find out. So Agnostics get your science boost

    I would suggest to take atheism as a complete absence of belief. Which means if you are an atheist society you don't get any perks from religions or agnosticism. You aren't seeking answers like agnostics, so no science for you. We could take this to be a negative thing, or perhaps figure if people aren't taking their time to devote to their faith or seek out the answer, they can be producing stuff. So Atheism would indirectly increase hammers. Or possibly commerce. If religious civs are willing to trade with you that is.
     
  19. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    I am currently working on "Evolving Religions" one aspect of this is taken from Sevo's "Faces of God" mod where you decide how your nation worships. So for each religion there are a number of aspects for you to chose from. Converting from one to another would probably cost a G Prophet but your initial choice will probably be free. Aspects are:-
    • Garden/Hunting/Pastoral - aim to make it "heaven on earth" through working to make the world a paradise. Working with the environment not against it.
    • Jihad/Crusade - Our way is right (religion and aspect) conquer and convert all others
    • Fanatic - like crusade/jihad but sneaky
    • Monuments (Big and small) celebrate the divine through buildings and architecture.
    • Knowledge .. and so on

    The intent is that there will be wonders both for the religion and also the aspect. This means that some wonders will go from the religion like "King Richard's Crusade" and move to the aspect.
     
  20. teakbois

    teakbois Prince

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    Ah, will see how this turns out.

    I do think my idea is fairly similar to how religions have worked in history, but new systems are usually interesting so in c2c modders we trust.
     

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