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C2C - Religions discussions and ideas

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Dancing Hoskuld, Oct 13, 2011.

  1. Cyborgs Gaming

    Cyborgs Gaming Chieftain

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    Thanks Harrier, I will do that. It is a one time post that I think might do some good. It brings up some points that I haven't noticed anyone else mention here. I have some more free time today and I'll see if I can collect my thoughts into one consolidated post again. I just wish I still had the old post.
     
  2. Cyborgs Gaming

    Cyborgs Gaming Chieftain

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    Here is an attempt to consolidate my thoughts on religion in C2C.

    Right now religion is a bit broken in C2C. I think this is because of an attempt to both include all major religions as well as allowing the free play to let older religions become more sustainable. There are a few different philosophies on how to fix this. One is to have religions become more like civics and be focused on tenants. The problem there is it become a numbers game and removes a lot of the theme. Another is to focus on the major religions of today, but that neglects the major religions of 2000 years ago that helped build what we have today. I propose instead a 3 tier system of religions.

    I once played a mod pack for civ3 that had 2 religions available for each civ. I suspect some others here have played it as well. The problem with that kind of look is that it is too streamlined and doesn't allow for the freedom that C2C allows for. Against that is why I think a hybrid, tiered system may be what is best.

    I think most religions can be broken down into ancient, renaissance, and modern. Some religions cross multiple eras and some split into further religions at the modern age. Some also combine into one. In the ancient age, for example, you have druidism, Kemeticism, shamanism, and several others that today would be categorized into Paganism. Also in the Renaissance Christianity was pretty much just Christianity. Today that splits into Catholicism, Mormonism, Evangelistic, and protestant. This is just a brief example of course.

    I think that religions should be treated a lot like cultures but with some fading out, with a chance of being resurrected under other religions after a certain point. Others have stated that religious conflicts within a nation are not nearly strong enough. I would tend to agree with that view. A lot of that could be changed with further civics though.

    There has been some debate about if Atheism should be treated as a religion or as a civic. I am also for treated Atheism as a religion because it is a very story theoretical debate. If using the 3 tiered system I mention then it would be a tier 3. If a previous religion would lead up to it, perhaps that could be Confucianism, which would be tier 2 (tier 1 could be ancestor worship?)

    On the other hand, agnosticism has been largely ignored by C2C and I think is important as a religious CIVIC. Where religious tolerance or diversity gives bonuses to have more religions present in a city (as it should) I think agnosticism could give no religious benefits at all and could instead give a science bonus. Agnosticism is a belief in not knowing what the truth is and seeking it out. Various religions could be accepted under it, as well as Atheism. Agnosticism is often viewed as a type of Atheism, but that is simply not true. It is basically putting trust in science and knowledge to discover what the truth is.

    My previous post, that somehow disappeared, I think was better worded that this. I tried to be a little more brief this time. I'm not going to be offended if my thoughts are discarded. If I have something to offer to the development of this awesome game then I will be happy to contribute more. If not then I will be happy to play it, as long as the bugs are worked out. I've been lurking in these forums for well over a year and have been playing C2C since about v24. I look forward to the further progression of it.
     
  3. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    Thank you for persevering and typing it again. I know how discouraging that can be.

    However, religion in C2C isn't broken.

    I don't think religions can be broken into different eras. Look at Hinduism, still very much alive, and dating back to our ancient era. Religions do evolve over time, but even so you would be hard put to delineate what kind of features can only occur in or before or after a particular era.

    Also, Naghual and Andeanism were genocided in our timeline, they did not die natural deaths by any means. Druidry much the same.

    Also, there is a "shamanic" component to say Christianity (mystics, charismatics/Pentecostals and the like) and a mystic thread in every religion. Then for religions like Buddhism and Taoism that we may see as completely mystical, on their homeground I'm sure they have their "materialist" ie. non-mystical sides too... Having a strong mystic/"shamanic" thread doesn't make Buddhism prehistoric, and nor does polytheism make Hinduism ancient.

    I agree that religions should become extinct more often.

    With this and with religious conflict, however, there are wider game mechanics issues in play. Nothing much happens in the game without you choosing for it to happen. Much less true I know in C2C than in vanilla, but still hard to get away from. So in the case of religious conflict and extinctions, it pretty much only happens if you want it to.
    I would like more things in the game to happen "due to circumstances beyond our control". We are probably moving in that direction, but only time will really tell...

    However, we do have religions that never really get off the ground, and others that grow to prominence with no-one pushing them. In my current game, Jainism is the leading religion, and although I have captured the holy city some time ago, and build the monasteries for the perks, it is spreading without my help, and is outperforming my state religion even within my empire. I have never built a Jain missionary, and don't build their temples any more either, although of course I do build their cathedrals (as I do everyone else's...:lol:) when I can.

    I have long opined in favour of including atheism as a religion, so...agreed:goodjob:.

    Agnosticism in my view, runs a gamut or spectrum. At one end there's "I don't know whether there's a god or not, but I almost admire those on both sides who (think they) do know". At the other end there must be dogmatic, fundamentalist or hardline agnosticism:D, saying: "All you religions are wrong, and you atheists are too, clearly there is no proof either of god's existence or his nonexistence!"
     
  4. Cyborgs Gaming

    Cyborgs Gaming Chieftain

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    I think we are agreed on 90% of the issue, so we should focus on that. The 40% or so that I wasn't clear on is the tiered system where some religions can last more than one tier. Judaism and Hinduism are perfect examples of religions that have lasted through more than one tier. Christianity would be both tier 2 and tier 3 split up.

    It is an interesting subject and something to think about for the v37 release. Right now I want to see V35 stabilized and released so I can play it, perhaps as a part of a LP group.
     
  5. Jeystone

    Jeystone Chieftain

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    Hi Guys. This is slightly off topic but as we are talking Religion,,, Back in the dim and distant past I turned religion off by having no state religion as my state religion. (seem a good idea at the time) Now after updating from svn from 11 August I am unable to choose a religion. I get to discover them but not implement any. when I go to the religion advisor screen ut says for all religions unable to convert. Any ideas please.
     
  6. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Some of the religion civics do not allow you to have a state religion.
     
  7. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    I discovered Druidism on v34 and I have Choose Religions active, but I didn't found a religion. I also have Divine Prophets active, and I didn't get a prophet either.
     
  8. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Would simply mean you weren't the first to get the tech.
     
  9. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    But no other religion has been founded. This could simply mean that the civ decided not to use its prophet, but the "found religion" symbol was still up there on the tech. And besides, I just did a test under the same settings in 50,000 BC. It worked without Divine Prophets and didn't work with.
     
  10. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    It would mean the civ decided not to use its prophet. If you're on v34 the found religion symbol won't be removed until that exact religion is taken. Current svn has resolved that so that it shows you'll get a prophet if a prophet is still there to get and once it's been had by any civ the message will be removed. The other vague possibility is if someone messed with the xml for the tech and removed the use of the bfirstfreeprophet tag there.
     
  11. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    Like I said, I tested it in 50,000 BC. So it's the latter.

    So, if I made my current game a scenario, then go into Notepad and remove Divine Prophets, what would happen precisely? Would I get to found the religion?
     
  12. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    You'd be better off fixing the bFirstFreeProphets tag on the tech.

    Edit: the tag is <FirstFreeProphet> and it is displayed under Druidism as <FirstFreeProphet>UNITCLASS_PROPHET</FirstFreeProphet>

    So that said, something else took place there or you're on an earlier version than the going SVN where there was a problem that there is not now.

    There IS a possibility though... are you playing on Limited Religions? I don't think the First Free Prophet works on that because you'll only ever get one religious capital unless you capture others so if I recall correctly, under both options being on, I disabled the first free prophet award to force the player to earn a prophet the hard way to get his religion.
     
  13. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    Yeah, I am. Why'd you do that?

    (And I told you, v34.)
     
  14. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Because you'll only ever need one more prophet than normal during such a game so to give a free prophet to the first to reach each religious tech would flood the world with far more prophets than necessary.
     
  15. stachnie

    stachnie Theorist

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    I would divide religions in C2C into three groups: the ones that offer no real advantage as a State Religion if you have another one, the ones that may be converted to at any time and the ones that require to be quick enough.

    1: Canaanism, Janism, IIRC also Baha'i and Scientology. They have their own buildings but all of them may be built even when not a State Religion, so if you have another religion already, there is no benefit from conversion.

    2: Druidism, Shamanism, Tengriism, Yoruba, Ngaii: you need to convert to them to get full benefits (some of them may be very nice, like no pollution from buildings for every third city) but you may do it at any time, because they do not have any Great Wonders which may be built by rival civs. Once you build the buildings, you may switch to another religion.

    3. Most of religions, starting from Mesopotamism: they have very nice Great Wonders, which may be built by only one civ, so if you want to get the advantage, you need to build them quick enough (before someone else builds them... or before they expire).

    S.
     
  16. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    I propose the following names for the units/buildings of Voodoo:
    Monastery (currently "Voodoo House"): Hounfor
    Missionary: Houngan
    Female Missionary (if possible): Mambo
    Temple (currently "Voodoo Hut"): Loa-Hwe

    This last one I don't have a source for, except that "loa" means "deity" and "hwe" means "house" (and hyphens seem to be the authentic Voodoo way of compounding words...).
     
  17. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    All are easily done.
     
  18. meatball20

    meatball20 rockhound

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    can they steal units like a melee or gunpowder unit like a spy steals a worker
     
  19. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    No they can't.
     
  20. liosalpha

    liosalpha Chieftain

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    I'm wondering why the Mormons buildings are the only ones having resources removed. IIrc:
    Temple removes books.
    Monastery removes tobacco.
    Cathedrals removes tea. (I'm not sure if these are indeed banned in the Mormon religion, but I assumed they are more against alcohols and electronic stuff. IM not a religion expert. But besides that.)

    If you wand to restrict players from hoarding every religious building, this idea could be extended. but not to ban the resource but by reducing its effects.

    For example: Jews would get no food from seafood (except fish)
    Hindu no food from cows/ox/buffalo (for the rarity of cows)
    Islam would have no food from pigs. Removes any dogs and wolf improvement from the city.
    Buddhist would have less income from towns and luxury goods like marble gold silver.
    Christians would have no food from apples (forbidden fruit) No food from sheep and fish (IK it far fetched but I don't know any better.)

    Etc, the others can be filled in like this. Might be cool to have a building or resource get a good bonus on completing the cathedrals. Like the Islam get more culture/happiness from mosaics or sugar. Or the Christians get more happiness from wine and candles
     

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