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C2C - Religions discussions and ideas

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Dancing Hoskuld, Oct 13, 2011.

  1. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    You're right about that last sentance. BUT this may not be a bad thing really. DH has often spoken about the benefit of making each age play and feel differently.

    Personally I just feel that the dating of the religious techs should be based on a foundation of research is all. This is because it makes the mod helpful to illuminate the evolution stages of religions. I'm growing more and more desirous to see DH's religious solutions come to pass to help with this process.
     
  2. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Rough outline on change to missionaries

    In the original Civ IV religion was about finding excuses for declaring war on others and missionaries were about spreading your religion to other nations for diplomatic reasons. Missionaries needed a monastery or civic for them to be built.

    In RoM we (mostly AAranda) added many religions to add flavour. We also changed the early religions so that they could build missionaries much earlier so that the religion would spread.

    Religion spread mechanism. There are tags on the religion and buildings which say they are about spreading the religion but in actual fact they are only about spreading the religion to cities that currently have no religion in them. This means that most cities end up with an "old" religion because they were build before the "modern" religions came about.

    Missionaries are one shot use and that use it to attempt to spread their religion to a new city. This is good as far as it goes but we could probably do better. I still think that missionaries are a one shot unit, I just feel that they could do more things and could upgrade to other unit lines which are not one shot.

    Proposal 1 - Missionaries under control of the religion not the state?

    1.1 Availability.
    Missionaries are about the religion with a minor diplomatic function as well. Should non-state missionaries even be available to nations?

    Non-state religion buildings should still create missionaries (see Kornifere mod where some religious buildings create missionaries every so often) but they should start automated and probably not be under the control of the nation.​

    1.2 Not all religions have missionaries
    Not all religions have missionaries and some would say that it is a phase that religions go through at various times. Do we need a Religion View - Seek Converts (can't think of the correct word) which allows missionaries but at increased costs and the converse? Or is this just a real world thing that would make the game to hard and less fun?​


    Proposal 2. Interaction with Barbarian
    I would like missionaries to be able to
    create a mission in barbarian cities which would make the barbarian units from that city more likely to attach nations with out that state religion and more likely to spontaneously join a nation with that state religion.

    Talk to a stack of barbarians and "convert them to the faith". Which could mean they join a nation with that religion or become fanatics that attach the nearest nation which has that religion in it but does not have it as their state religion.​

    Proposal 3. Upgrades
    With The_Js "Warriors of God" mod included in C2C the missionaries could upgrade to one or other of these units
    • Defenders of the Faith - healer units that can only defend and if they successfully defend they spread their religion to the city.
    • Holy Warriors - fanatics that attack enemy cities and spread the religion to the city on conquest. There is also a conquest mod that we have that spreads the religion on conquest reducing the use of these units.
    Both units have special promotions added to them via python. Currently this is State Religion not the unit's religion so only missionaries of the State Religion should be able to upgrade thus.

    This would be useful in the late classical and early middle ages.

    The units from The_J's mod would need to be extended and expanded a bit to keep them viable with technological changes.

    Once we get to the Industrial era and beyond the missionaries would be more likely to upgrade to healers and normal military units with only the fanatical units available under specific religious Civics.​

    Proposal 4 - Corporations or Cults and Religious Orders
    Will require the obsolete corporations mod in C2C if we don't already have it.

    In the early period we could pinch/reuse the Cults idea from Pie_at's mod. These are simple Cults spread like corporations. These would go obsolete when the next set become available.

    In the later middle ages we could have various religious orders similar to those we have for the Crusades. In this case the missionary would be able to upgrade to these units or would have the ability to build the "order House" in a city.

    Would these Orders be restricted by State Religion and Civic? Ie you could only have multiple religion ones if you don't have a state religion of are running a free religion civic?

    These Religious Orders would need to be gone well before Corporations can be founded for this to work. Probably around Industralization​
     
  3. Noriad2

    Noriad2 Emperor

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    My opinion:

    -automatic generation of missionaries sucks. If you don't need or want them you'll end up having to disband them over and over again. Which is just annoying micromanagement.
    -automated management: goes from player control to less player control. Removing the player from the game is usually bad game design unless the loss in micromanagement offsets this.
    -barbarian proposals: Feels like a nerf to barbarians. But also increases player's options slightly. So something worth thinking about. Could use a more choicy approach than "whomever gets a missionary there first, wins".
    -missionaries upgrading to healers feels a bit Christian to me. I don't think all religions are like that. Also religious people doing charity work does not bring them to the same level as professional doctors. Medicine is an actual profession.
    -Holy orders: interesting idea. Perhaps something to use a Great Prophet on.
     
  4. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    @Camber The two things I could not get working from your code was the events which I just commented out as I could not figure out what it was you were trying to achieve. I think some of it was notes to yourself. The other thing was the movies - when I defined them the game would crash for no apparent reason. I was going to go through each one and find the culprit but never did.
     
  5. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    1.1: agree that taking control from the player makes it unnecessary to have missionaries at all and if we're to go that far with it then we would be better served to let religion spread be a completely no-player interaction mechanism and remove missionaries completely. Which I don't think is a good way to go either.

    1.2: haven't we had some religions that don't have missionaries that just spread through the multiple religion spread option?

    2: Complicated to implement but cool

    3: I don't think this is a bad idea but would be best to make it not always lead to healers.

    4: I always figured the best way to represent a cult would be through a penalizing religion - still a religion, just one you DON'T want having around. Initiated by a Cultist Great Person - a Dark Great Person that you'd use to inflict a cult upon an enemy. Spread rules might be a little interesting...
     
  6. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Missionaries are a one shot only because missionary work is a vocation so one person one lifetime is what it represents here. With Camber's Mormon idea it does become more a "one part of life" thing.

    More usual case historically, but if two or more get there then the barbarians would "play them off against each other". Which is where the diplomat units come in, but that has not been implemented or discussed yet.

    Any of the religions that aren't just State religions, ie were personal and possible State. Egyptian/Greek/Roman religions would not but then they did not have missionaries or monasteries either.

    I was fairly sure I said healers/fanatics as the two. Mind you if we went with Sevo's mod we would have 6 or so paths including engineers and gardeners.

    No, or if we tried it it failed badly. I don't think it takes into consideration the State Religion of the nation.

    j/k Yes Christianity would fit well in that as it was, for a short time, a Jewish Cult:lol:

    The Cults in Pie_at's mod are things like Fertility, Sport and dang can't remember the others. Hum.. these would also fit OK with Sevo's mod perhaps I need to rethink that aspect.
     
  7. majaczek

    majaczek Warlord

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    Thats why I have always Multiple Religion Spread checked (it's probably in bug options)
     
  8. LumenAngel

    LumenAngel King

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    Same thing here. And yes, it's in BUG.
     
  9. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    However it does not work well. It is particularly bad at spreading your State Religion to your cities for some reason.
     
  10. majaczek

    majaczek Warlord

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    What about Neopaganism, New Age, etc?
     
  11. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    I am continuing the slow work on fully modularising the religions to make them fully optional. Bahai is now done. While doing this I have noticed an omission in the Tourism building XML which I will need to fix. It is an update of the buildings but does not have the check to make sure the buildings exist. I'll add the and dependency XML.

    Also I have added a new modern religion Cao Dai but it is still turned off in the MLF (Custom_Religions folder). Its building and unit buttons need work as does its missionary.

    I would include the Dreamtime religion but its missionary also needs work and I need to separate it from the free missionary mod first.


    Art as always is the problem. We do have a few religions that are using the modern neopaganism names for ancient religions. That needs to be fixed first. ;)
     
  12. LumenAngel

    LumenAngel King

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    I m not too much into neopagan religions. Maybe having modern building for older religion is just better. Eg. some modern building for Asatru bcause all its specials buildings are obsolete with Humanism
     
  13. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    I am looking at obsoleting and/or upgrading religions. I am not really looking at adding many more unless I add all of them:mischief:.
     
  14. majaczek

    majaczek Warlord

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    Could You change AI to be able to use more than one religion at once? It would be very useful since we have much more religions than in vanilla. If i can vote, religions should not obsolete.
    I mentioned neopaganism because there is a flow in history to having it's "Renaissance" (old priorities having new life). And yes neopaganism is not a single religion and some of them are mimicking old ones, some of them only shares scheme but are new. What about Wikka? Does it match?
     
  15. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Define 'use'.
     
  16. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    @majaczek This is the reference I am using, even though it is not complete. It is also not a tech tree. The lines represent influence and flows of thought or philosophy not requirements.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    I have tried out 3 cults from Pie_at's mod: Fertility Cult (prehistoric era), Cult of the Hero (ancient era) and the Cult of Isis (classical era). They are corporations in the BtS sense so can be used to consume many resources. They will obsolete with a a Tech.

    I would like to have more generic and some specific cults as well in a similar complexity as corporations. Eventually I would like to have something like the medieval "Cult of the Virgin Mary" which requires Christianity to spread, state religion Christianity to found and actively removes any of the older women's that may still be around.

    I need to do some work to include The_J's Obsoleting Corporations mod and more work on the pedia before they can be made available to test in C2C.
     
  18. IronClaymore

    IronClaymore Warlord

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    [Unless this has already been done.] Ooh! Can we have cathedrals give a tourism bonus once a certain tech has been discovered or when a certain civic is enabled?

    Anyway, I always try to get every religion in my cities, regardless of Revolutions malus or silly stuff like that, partially for the education and culture boost but mostly for the monastery science boost. So the issue is UI mainly:
    Sooooo many missionaries taking up the unit building selection (it's bad enough on 1920x1080, and worse on anything less). And, I mean, as the leader of a massive empire, you shouldn't be personally responsible for hiring missionaries to spread every religion. Even before separation of church and state is thought up.
     
  19. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    What do u need for Caodai? Can i help?
     
  20. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Graphics for the missionary, but mostly some wonder ideas.
     

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