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"BTW I like your idea of auto building The Valley of the Kings since it reduces the control on when you get the golden age."

Noooooo....!

Ah well. That'll be when I switch all that cities' squares to food and commerce tiles.
 
"BTW I like your idea of auto building The Valley of the Kings since it reduces the control on when you get the golden age."

Noooooo....!

Ah well. That'll be when I switch all that cities' squares to food and commerce tiles.

I was the one who suggested the auto-build. I noticed that I would put off building Valley of the Kings until just before the Sphinx went obsolete at Architecture in the Medieval Era. So I'd get to Guilds and Chivalry and switch to Guilds economy civic and Standing Army military civic (this was right before CivPlayer8's civic changes). The thought that I had was "Valley of the Kings... and the king is Arthur." Really didn't feel right. I was going to suggest having it go obsolete at Democracy to put a clock on it, but this works just as well.
 
I was the one who suggested the auto-build. I noticed that I would put off building Valley of the Kings until just before the Sphinx went obsolete at Architecture in the Medieval Era. So I'd get to Guilds and Chivalry and switch to Guilds economy civic and Standing Army military civic (this was right before CivPlayer8's civic changes). The thought that I had was "Valley of the Kings... and the king is Arthur." Really didn't feel right. I was going to suggest having it go obsolete at Democracy to put a clock on it, but this works just as well.

Well, sure. Having it obsolete is fine. And a good idea, even. But auto-build? Overkill...
 
It's not "The Vally of the King" (probably because it seriously predates Elvis), it's "The Valley of the Kings" - plural. It isn't a monument (for the most part there was nothing to see until the archaeologists started digging up the place), it is a cemetery. If they build it just for you, that would be a good sign they were planning on you being the first occupant in the not too distant future...
 
I disagree with sculptures being a requirement for those egyptian wonders, presuming the sculpting tech represents classical greek 'advanced' sculpting. People were making statues long before that.

As a reference the Parthenon was completed in 438 BC (though additional artwork was done through 432 BC)

The great Sphinx of Giza was believe to have been built 2558 - 2532 BC (though there are radical theories saying that the original work was much older and that the head was recarved/shrunk into the Pharroh at that time).

The first of the Pyramids of Giza was built around 2650 BC and the last around 2500 BC.

The Valley of the Kings predates all them and was in use as the burial place for Pharros from the 16th to 11th Century BC.

So I think the whole structure may need to be rethunk... No matter 'how cool' the mechanic of them working in conjunction may be (or may have been).
 
I disagree with sculptures being a requirement for those egyptian wonders, presuming the sculpting tech represents classical greek 'advanced' sculpting. People were making statues long before that.

As a reference the Parthenon was completed in 438 BC (though additional artwork was done through 432 BC)

The great Sphinx of Giza was believe to have been built 2558 - 2532 BC (though there are radical theories saying that the original work was much older and that the head was recarved/shrunk into the Pharroh at that time).

The first of the Pyramids of Giza was built around 2650 BC and the last around 2500 BC.

The Valley of the Kings predates all them and was in use as the burial place for Pharros from the 16th to 11th Century BC.

So I think the whole structure may need to be rethunk... No matter 'how cool' the mechanic of them working in conjunction may be (or may have been).

I have played with both the sculpture reuqirement and not. With and I build them in the ancient era late copper which is about right ie about 2600BC. BTW 16-11th c BC is after 2500 BC
 
My point is that they were built way before copper. I don't even try to scale the C2C year dates to (near) historical dates anymore. It just doesn't work.
 
Personally, I think sculpting should come right after masonry. People only needed stone tools to sculpt, especially the ancient Egyptians. I think sculpting's current placement is too marble/Greco centric.
 
Updates
Tech Tree:
  • Added remapping and recosting scheme for Renaissance Era

Religions:
  • Moved Yoruba to X26 Y19, changed cost to 115, and added Polytheism and Reincarnation as prerequisites
  • Deleted redundant Resurrection prerequisite from Islam and Voodoo
  • Added Yoruba as prerequisite for Voodoo

Wonder tweaks:
  • Increased El Camino de Santiago base cost to 1000
  • Increased Via Appia base cost to 880
  • Changed Maginot Line to give +happy with Nationalist Politics civic
 
BTW 16-11th c BC is after 2500 BC
Only about 1100 years...

My point is that they were built way before copper.

Long before the Great Pyramid was built, Egypt already was using, and (of necessity) trading, copper. They were using some copper in the pre-Dynastic age by 4000BC, and possibly closer to 5000BC. (The earliest known use is around 5500BC in south-eastern Europe. It spread pretty rapidly.)

By the time the Great Pyramid was built they had already had bronze for centuries (although not in large quantities, it was not common until the 18th Dynasty) - the First Dynasty corresponds roughly with the start of the actual use of bronze in Egypt and the Great Pyramid wasn't built until the 4th Dynasty.

I recall seeing something that indicated that they used copper chisels when building the pyramids mainly because a bronze chisel that gets dull is a lot harder to resharpen than a copper chisel and a lot more difficult and expensive to make in the first place (especially since there was no significant source of copper in Egypt, let alone tin). Once they wear too much you have to melt them down to make new chisels and that is a lot easier to do with copper than bronze. They used a lot of chisels when building a pyramid. So even though the cooper chisels went dull much quicker, it was still more practical to use them.

By the way, Imhotep (apparent inventor of the Egyptian pyramids, and possibly the inventor of the stone column in architecture) had as one of his titles "Chief Sculptor". The Egyptians, and other early cultures, were producing very good sculptures before the pyramids were built.

I'm not sure what my point is, except perhaps that producing the pyramids before Bronze Working (and Sculpture) is earlier than it was done in the real world. Doing it before Copper Working is much too early.

Around the time they were building the Great Pyramid is when they invented the first known synthetic pigment, Egyptian Blue is what it is called these days (it is one of the few post stone-age technologies that has ever been lost - it disappeared shortly after the end of the Roman Empire and was not reinvented until the 1800s), and one of its key ingredients is copper. Copper was also used to color Egyptian faience (a type of ceramic) before that. So not only did they use copper directly at that time, they knew how to make other compounds out of it.
 
Like I said, the only difference in my eyes between masonry and sculpting is that one is used for constructive purposes, and the other, for aesthetic. There should not be a difference in the tools required to do them.

Either put masonry after copper (silly, in my opinion), or make sculpting come right after masonry.

We mustn't be too egyptian-centric, regardless of the fact that the pyramids are part of the heart of this matter.

People don't NEED copper tools to carve stone, be it for constructive purposes (as is evident by the lack of copper working being needed to be researched before masonry), or for aesthetic purposes.

Stone tools are all that is needed.
 
Mea Culpa. I think I was thinking too much normal Civ4 where copper = bronze age.
 
I've always used the lead-scoring civilization as a barometer of historical accuracy when it comes to dating. So, China and Europe might be top dogs around the Renaissance while the Aborigines have yet to band together into a civilization and get their own technological development going.
 
I recall seeing something that indicated that they used copper chisels when building the pyramids mainly because a bronze chisel that gets dull is a lot harder to resharpen than a copper chisel and a lot more difficult and expensive to make in the first place (especially since there was no significant source of copper in Egypt, let alone tin). Once they wear too much you have to melt them down to make new chisels and that is a lot easier to do with copper than bronze. They used a lot of chisels when building a pyramid. So even though the cooper chisels went dull much quicker, it was still more practical to use them.

Recent studies suggest that stone chisels were used because they don't wear down they break resulting in a new slightly shorter chisel.
 
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